Episode 129 HR Coffee Time

How do you develop the people within your workforce to become great managers? Poor management negatively impacts everyone, often resulting in the HR/People team having to help with performance issues, manage grievances, or recruitment challenges due to high turnover. It can feel hard to know what to do or where to start. So, this episode of HR Coffee Time is here to help.  

 

Host Fay Wallis is joined by James Rose, a management skills trainer, speaker and coach, who generously shares his Rose model, which consists of five essential techniques to become a great manager.  

 

Key Points from This Episode 

[00:00] Introduction and overview 

[02:10] Introducing James Rose 

[03:41] How James developed his Rose model 

[07:05] The difference between absent and present managers 

[06:24] The first layer of the Rose model: regular check-ins 

[13:48] The second layer of the Rose model: weekly team meetings 

[20:44] The third layer of the Rose model: monthly catch ups 

[30:25] The fourth & fifth layers of the Rose model: mid-year or quarterly reviews and end of year reviews 

[33:29] James’s confidence-building tip: encourage team members to keep track of their achievements and development. 

[36:25] How to contact James and learn more about his work 

[37:32] Other relevant HR Coffee Time episodes to listen to next 

 

Useful Links 

 

 

Other Relevant HR Coffee Time Episodes  

 

Looking For the Transcript? 

You can find the transcript on this page of the Bright Sky Career Coaching website.  

 

Rate and Review the Podcast 

If you found this episode of HR Coffee Time helpful, please rate and review it on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. This video shows you how to rate and review the podcast on Apple Podcasts (because it isn’t very intuitive). If you’re kind enough to leave a review, let Fay know so she can say thank you. You can always reach her at: fay@brightskycareercoaching.co.uk

 

Enjoyed This Episode? Don’t Miss the Next One! 

Be notified each time a new episode of HR Coffee Time is released and get access to other free career tips, tools and resources by signing up to receive the free weekly HR Coffee Time email. 

Transcript
James Rose:

That underpins the whole ROSE model, which is how can you be more of a present manager, someone who builds the relationship with the team member to such a point where not only are you interested in their welfare and you show you value them, but on the back of that, it means you have much more open and constructive and development oriented conversations.

Fay Wallis:

Welcome back to HR Coffee Time. It’s great to have you listening today. I’m your host, Fay Wallis, a career and executive coach with a background in HR, and I’ve created HR Coffee Time, especially for you, to help you have a successful and fulfilling HR or people career without working yourself into the ground.

A big challenge you might be facing at the moment is trying to figure out how to foster great management within your organization, how to help people be brilliant managers. It’s a topic I’ve wanted to cover in more detail on the podcast for a while because bad management has such a negative impact on everyone and you’re the one who’s often left to deal with the fallout, whether that’s dealing with performance management issues, grievances, or high turnover in teams that don’t have strong managers.

But there’s so much advice and information out there about how to be a good manager that I know it can feel overwhelming and hard to know where to start. I also think a lot of the advice can feel very theoretical rather than practical, which makes it difficult to put into action. If you have management responsibilities yourself, you might also be worrying about how to be a great manager for the people who report in to you.

I’ve had lots of HR and people professionals say to me that they find it easy to support other managers in the business with advice on how to manage their team, but they can find it hard to find their own confidence in themselves as a manager. And then they worry about whether they’re doing a good enough job.

So this episode is here to help no matter what. which point you’re at, whether you want to sort out having great managers in the organization or you want to become a better manager yourself. You’ll be hearing from my guest, James Rose, who is very generously sharing his Rose model with us, which is made up of five essential techniques to become a great manager.

I love how practical James’s advice is. And I think two favorite pieces of advice that he shares in the episode are on how to run good team meetings that don’t drag on forever and feel pointless and how to help people develop and grow, and perhaps even more importantly, to help show them that they’re developing and growing.

James has trained well over 20, 000 managers during his career, helping them to be more capable, confident, and successful. Oh. He’s a sought after trainer, speaker and coach working with globally recognised companies, including KPMG, HSBC, Honda, Chelsea Football Club, Carphone Warehouse, Capita, Disneyland Paris and many more.

I really hope you’re going to enjoy learning from James as much as I did. Let’s go ahead and meet him now.

Welcome to the show, James. It’s so wonderful to have you here. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Oh, you’re very welcome. And incredibly, you have trained more than 20, 000 managers throughout your career. I can’t quite believe it. It’s such an amazing amount. And I know that you’ve created your own management model, which is called the Rose model.

I’d love to know how you developed the model. Can you talk us through how you did it?

James Rose:

Yeah, of course I can. So first of all, I called it the Rose model because I, Couldn’t think of anything more imaginative than using my own surname. So I went, you know, in line with the Abraham Maslow style of labeling your own model.

But where it came from, well, I’ve been working either as a manager or with managers for over 25 years. And what I have noticed over that time Is that often managers that the best team members get promoted into a managerial position and likewise, the business doesn’t necessarily give those same people the time and space to be a manager.

It’s an add on task. So people are promoted into these roles that they don’t necessarily have the training for. or the knowledge of how to do well and yet they’re expected to do it in addition to their normal tasks. So it becomes something that is often forgotten about or relegated into second place or deprioritized, those kind of things.

So when I was a manager myself, it was very hard to find the time to performance manage staff well. And by that, I mean, build strong relationships with team members, build good levels of trust, demonstrate how those same team members are developing and flourishing in their roles. And helping people feel confident and happy at work.

It’s very difficult to spend the time and invest that time in doing those things. So having become a trainer of managers, what I found was those same managers were telling me what I’d experienced myself. And how difficult it was for them. And of course, when you’re a trainer, you can open up conversations and say, well, how do you deal with that?

And what are your strategies and what are the big challenges and the pain points for you? And I’d be noting all those things down and learning from the people that I was training at the same time. And it just became more and more clear in my mind’s eye that there was an obvious route to becoming a better manager, a very practical, logical step by step guide, particularly for those people who don’t have the time, the knowledge, or the experience to understand how to do it for themselves.

And that’s what created this Rose model in, in the end.

Fay Wallis:

Oh, how fantastic. It’s amazing how much that we can learn just from talking to people and seeing what it is that they’re using, isn’t it?

James Rose:

Absolutely. That’s, that’s right. A lot of those same people were saying, I’d love to be able to know how to do this properly.

And I’d like to have a set of. Guiding steps on how to do it well and knowing that perhaps at the end of my performance year, I know I performance managed and manage my team members well so that my own manager can say, Look how well you’ve done and look how you’ve done the things that you’ve done, and we can set a really strong set of objectives for next year on the back of what you’ve done.

The whole thing, the whole thing around the Rose model is to make. What is sometimes a bit, I suppose, nefarious or vague into something that is very tangible and practical and useful to apply.

Fay Wallis:

Well, you have got me on tenterhooks and I’m sure you’ve got everyone listening on tenterhooks. We’re all going to want to hear what the Rose model is.

Are you happy to talk us through the steps?

James Rose:

Yeah, of course. So. Well, I suppose let’s start off with the general overview of it, which is, I talk about absent and present managers. So if you’re an absent manager, you are, and this is very generic, but you are typically someone who does the bare minimum. So knows they should be doing perhaps monthly catch ups with their team members and mid year and end of year reviews.

But that’s typically as much as you do, unless there are real challenges or problems that you need to deal with straight away. And in that scenario. It’s kind of clear that if you were a team member of that absent manager and you had a problem, so let’s say your, your parent had just been admitted into hospital and was feeling very unwell over a period of two or three months, and you had to step up and look after them, and it was causing you stress and causing you to feel distracted.

Would you want to tell your Absent manager who you don’t have that relationship with that. Actually, things are tough for you right now, and you need a little bit of advice and support. You probably wouldn’t because the trust and the rapport isn’t there. And let’s face it, you probably wouldn’t find the time to speak to your manager about it anyway, because they’re so busy and off doing their own things that it will become quite difficult.

Compare that to what I call a present manager. So a present manager is one who, so let’s say Fay, you and I work together and you’re my manager. What do you do on a regular basis to show that you’re present and to build trust and rapport and the relationship with me and, and value me? Well, typically, probably we know each other quite well.

You probably know that I’ve got two kids. You probably know what my hobbies are. You probably know what I enjoy and don’t enjoy about being at work and where my strengths and perhaps development areas are because we talk regularly, but we don’t just talk about work. We talk about personal stuff too. As much as I’m comfortable with.

And then when I have this same scenario, a parent goes into hospital, they’re unwell for two or three months, I’m going to be much more inclined to tell you about that and seek support and advice from you because I trust you and I like you and I, and I know that you value me and you’ll, you’ll do everything you can for me.

So you’re a present manager. And that underpins the whole rose model, which is how can you be more of a present manager? Someone who builds the relationship with the team member to such a point where not only are you interested in their welfare and you show you value them, but on the back of that, it means you have much more open and constructive and development oriented conversations.

So the rose model has five layers to it. So what I’ll do is I’ll talk through those five layers, and this is all about how you become more of a present manager, but doing it strategically and consciously to build the relationship.

Fay Wallis:

Oh, it sounds like it’s going to be an incredibly useful model. I can imagine so many people will be listening right now and either thinking.

Oh gosh, am I a bit more of an absent manager than I mean to be? Or they’ll be thinking about managers within their organization. I think one of the biggest challenges for HR professionals is ensuring that there’s great management in place in the organizations that they’re in. And there so often isn’t, and there’s.

So much advice and so much information out there about how to become a good manager, that it can actually be overwhelming. So I think it’s going to be quite exciting for us to hear a contained model. That’s a great starting point. So I’ll stop talking and I’ll let you get started with talking us through it.

James Rose:

Thank you. Okay. And you make an excellent point about corporate culture as being so important to how managers look after their team members. So, and again, this is again, why this model is all about consciously and strategically choosing when and how to engage and interact to look after support and develop your team members.

So yes, so five layers, layer one at the top, What are you doing on a regular basis, perhaps daily, perhaps every other day, but what are you doing just to check in with your team member? So I’ve asked thousands of managers that question, and most of those managers will say, you know, on a daily basis, I’ll ask them, what are they working on today?

Or How’s their week going or any problems? And that’s very typically what a manager does to check in with a team member. And whether that’s face to face, virtually doesn’t matter. That’s the questions. But of course, when you do that and you do it regularly, A, it becomes a bit repetitive and monotonous, therefore artificial.

But it also what you’re saying, the subtext, your team member is, I value you as a commodity. I value you as, as what you can produce for me and whether you can meet your objectives, not as a person or as a human being. And of course, there’s no option to build trust or the relationship in that conversation.

So when we check in with our team members, which most managers will do on a regular basis, but when we check in with the team member, we need to be very mindful of not just treating them like a commodity or transacting with them as a human being, as someone we want to have a relationship with, you know, business relationship.

And different team members will respond differently to that, of course, some will open up more than others. And you respond appropriately and you flex your approach because of that. Just typically what we’re doing is, so again, Fay, I’ll use you as my example. You’re now my team member. I happen to know that one of your kids is off to university soon.

So you might be going on a trip to visit a university. And so come Monday with you go on the weekend. So come Monday morning, we’re both, you know, chatting in the little kitchenette area in the office, or we have a regular catch up on teams, or maybe I just send you a quick email. It doesn’t matter. But I just say to you, Hey, how’s it going?

You have a good weekend? What did you what did your son think about so and so university? And it The subtext there, whether you consciously recognize it or not, the subtext from you is, Oh, James, he’s nice. He cares. He remembers. He looks after me. He’s interested in me. I like him for that. And then once you get that reaction to me, and of course it’s got to be done appropriately, I can’t look like a stalker and anything like that, you know, nothing too much about you.

But once we have that sort of relationship where we just disclose a bit more about each other, know each other a bit better on the back of that. It means when we come to stage three in the model, which I’ll talk to you about in a moment, because there is more trust and liking, the conversation is much more open and free and gets a bit deeper, gets below the surface.

Fay Wallis:

It’s really about building that solid foundation, isn’t it? And so important what you’re saying about showing an interest in them as a whole person, not just someone who’s there to deliver a job. But I won’t interrupt you. I’ll let you carry on and talk us through the next stage.

James Rose:

Yes, at stage one. It’s it’s a brief conversation, just checking in, seeing how they’re doing.

You’ll do it more often with some less often with others. Go into more detail with some and less with others. Fine. It’s what’s appropriate. And then on a weekly basis, and a lot of managers will do this, but some won’t on a weekly basis. You now bring your team together. So it depends on the size of the team.

How long this conversation takes. But let’s say there’s six people in the team. It could be a 10 minute conversation. Done virtually done face to face doesn’t matter, but the whole team comes together. Maybe on a Monday morning, maybe a Friday afternoon, maybe both. If it’s a Monday morning, it’s what’s everyone working on this week.

If it’s a Friday afternoon, it’s how’s the week gone? Give us a summary. And the manager will literally sit there with an egg timer. And maybe you could do that using some software on the computer these days. Doesn’t have to be a literal egg timer. And it will be 60 seconds. Bob, you know, Monday morning.

Bob, go. What are you working on? Thank you. Moving on to Francis. Francis, what are you working on? Go. 60 seconds from all six people. Now, the beauty of doing it this way, and it’s a bit of a lean methodology way of doing things as well, but the beauty of doing it is. From a managerial point of view, you get to know exactly what’s going on with the team, but in brief, which means you can nip things in the bud if you need to, and also you can provide support if you need to.

Additionally, because the whole team is together for this short 10, 15 minute power meeting, it means the team is more engaged because it’s not an hour long. Oh, this again can’t be bothered. So the whole team is engaged. And also, and again, Fay, I’ll use you with Francis and Bob. So now, Fay, you say, as part of your 60 seconds, you don’t give us all the usual stuff you’re doing.

I’ve got all those, say, weekly reports to produce. We all know that. But it’s the unusual things. You say, maybe, I’ve got a really difficult meeting on Wednesday with So and so from such and such company, I’m feeling a little bit nervous about it because I’ve heard they’re a bit of a tyrant. Now, the beauty is when you say that, Bob says, Oh, don’t worry, Fay, I’ve met with her before and yes, she is a bit of a tyrant.

But you know what I found worked? This. Let’s talk about it afterwards. I can give you some pointers. And now as the manager, brilliant, my time is now freed up because I haven’t got to sit with you and work through how you’re going to make that meeting a success. You and Bob are going to do it. And then maybe you say, Fay, on Thursday, I’ve got the dentist.

I think they’re gonna have to give me a filling. I hate the dentist. I’m not looking forward to it. So now we all know that on Thursday morning, you’re gonna be a bit prickly about going to the dentist and a bit snappy with all of us because you’re nervous. And then the Thursday afternoon, when you come back to the office and you’ve got a bit of dribble coming down the side of your face because you’re still numb from the anesthetic, we can also understand why that’s happening.

You know, so it’s a chance for the team to get to work well with each other. Understand what’s going on. It happens four or five times over the course of the month. And you as the manager have a really clear picture of what’s going on. The key word being what, what’s going on with each of your team members.

So task wise, you are all fully up to date.

Fay Wallis:

I’m liking this idea of an egg timer because you gave me a flashback to years ago, I used to sit in on a Monday morning meeting and everybody within the team would be there and oh, it just felt a bit like torture because it would go on forever. Some people would be super quick and just say, Oh yes, this is what I’ve got going on.

Um, and others would just really feel like they had to fill the time because we had an hour allocated for it and they would end up going through all of that stuff that you pointed out isn’t necessarily relevant. So every single tiny thing they’re working on, even if it’s something that they had to do every single week.

So I’m quite liking this idea of. really narrowing the amount of time and using a device to help keep people on track. That sounds great. And I, I also like the purpose behind it. I think another reason that meetings can fall down or not be productive is because there’s not a clear purpose. People just show up.

Thinking, well, I know I’m supposed to have a weekly team meeting, so I’ll just let everyone talk and maybe we’ll go around the room. And that’s really what was happening in the company that I just mentioned that I used to work for. Whereas here, if the clear purpose is what’s coming up. whether that’s personal or professional and I guess maybe what you need help with, but yeah, it helps make it a much more productive meeting.

James Rose:

Absolutely right. It does. And I think people, if you introduce this way of working with the Rose model into your own business, it will take time for people to adjust to that way of working and understand what they should be talking about. It doesn’t have to be 60 seconds. It could be 90, whatever, two minutes, but it will take time for people to adjust to that.

And when they do exactly as you say, Fay, it becomes a far more dynamic, useful, productive, and actually welcome meeting the people to attend.

Fay Wallis:

We had a guest on the show recently, actually, who was talking about agile leadership, Kate Madison Greenwell, and she talked about having a regular meeting and a slightly different format.

For anyone who’s interested, I’d really encourage you to hop back to listen to that episode. I’ll make sure that I put it in the show notes for you. But she said, just be prepared for the fact that the first few times you run it, it, it might not go perfectly because everyone’s got to adjust and get used to it.

I think it doesn’t matter what you’re introducing. Whenever you introduce something new, Don’t be disappointed if the first time you run it people seem a bit stilted or it’s a bit awkward or it just doesn’t go in the way that you’d like it to. I think perseverance and just testing things out a bit is always a helpful thing to keep in mind.

James Rose:

And I often say to people on my training courses, I say to them, blame me. You know, Tell your team members you went on a training course. You can tell them it was fantastic and the trainer was brilliant. But I say to them went on a training course. It got you thinking and you’d like to try something new, and it might not work properly the first time.

But let’s stick with it because the principle is sound. And it’s the same way of working here. You go back to your team members, say to them. You listen to this fantastic podcast. You got some great advice. It’s given you loads of food for thought. You want to try something with them. Is everyone up for it?

Let’s give it a go for the next four or five weeks and we’ll see what happens. Then once people are in the zone, as you say, it becomes more normal and natural and it’s, it’s just the new way of working.

Fay Wallis:

Well, that sounds like great advice. Um, yeah, please do go ahead and tell everyone that you’re trying this out because of listening to the podcast, but James, we’re all going to want to hear what the next step in the model is.

Do you want to tell us?

James Rose:

Yes. Right. So brief summary, what have we done on a semi regular basis? Once, twice, three times a week, we’ve checked in with them, not around tasks, but around welfare and more sort of personal life stuff appropriate to what the team members wants to talk about tier two. If you like coming down the model tier two is on a weekly basis.

The team gets together just to talk about what the team is doing. And that happens obviously weekly over the month. Then step three is your monthly catch ups, which all managers should be doing as a minimum is a monthly catch up prioritized over other work. So again, we know that being a manager often is secondary to your primary task.

Your primary role. Monthly catch up should be prioritized. They can’t always happen. I get it. Stuff gets in the way. But think about what you’re telling your team member when you cancel or postpone your monthly catch up with them too often, you’re saying to them, they’re not a priority. You don’t value them.

They’re not important. And that destroys the relationship, which is exactly what we don’t want to do. And why the rose model exists is to build the relationship, build the trust. So stage three is your monthly catch up. What’s happening in the monthly catch up? This is all about the how. Okay, weeklies are the what?

What are you working on? Monthlies are the how? I would say again, in my experience, 98 percent of managers will not be doing this step and it’s So damaging to the team member. So again, Fay, I’ll use you. If I may, we have monthly catch up meetings prior to listening to this podcast, how I handled that with you is I would say, right, Fay, what have you been working on?

What are your objectives for the coming month? What challenges have you had? How did you deal with them? Or can I tell you what you should have done differently? And that’s kind of how the conversation would go, but we don’t really know what we’re there for. And the meeting felt very repetitive because it’s always the same way.

The problem with that is. In our mid year reviews and our end of year reviews, what happens? We look back over our monthly meetings and we can see that you’ve achieved all your corporate and personal objectives, which is great. We tick a box. Maybe you get a, you get a bonus on the back of that. Well done.

And you go back home when you tell your husband and whoever else wants to listen, yeah, I met my objectives and yeah, I got my, my bonus. Let’s go on holiday. That’s great. But you can’t demonstrate Any personal development, if you think about it like a graph where the vertical axis shows development and the horizontal is your, over time, your, your year, you can’t show development.

You can’t see a diagonal line going from bottom left to top right because we haven’t talked about it. You can say you met your corporate objectives, but you can’t say that you developed. So in these monthly conversations, here’s what they sound like. So Fay, we’ve met four times. It’s not exactly this, but I’m using this example based on what we talked about in this podcast.

So Fay, we’ve, we’ve met four times over the last four weeks and I know what you’ve been working on. And I give a quick summary of that. You’ve, you’ve done this, this, this, this, and this. Does that sound about right Fay? And you go, yeah, that’s a good summary. Thank you very much. Then I say, and, um, a couple of weeks ago, you mentioned that you were going to have that tricky meeting with that customer, that stakeholder, and Bob was going to help you out with how to handle it.

And you go, yeah, yeah. How did it go? And you go, yeah, it was good. And of course, now any great manager, what’s your next question? It’s a nice open question. And you ask, what was it that went well? Cause you want to, I want to keep you talking. I want to show that I value you. I’m interested in what you’ve done.

So you say, oh wow, this went well, this went well, this went well. Right, good. Another key question coming up. What did you do that made it go so well? That’s a great question. What did you do? This is the how part that most managers miss. What did you do to make it go so well? And you respond, Fay, and you go, Uh, Don’t know really.

Uh, just, I don’t know. I just did it. I had a meeting, did what Bob told me to do. It went well. Again, it’s going to be tough in the first few months of these monthly meetings because, because what’s the answer to that? What did you do to make it go so well? What’s the answer? If your company has a behavior framework or a competency framework, these are the things you’re asking about, right?

The behaviors, the competencies. It’s how did you create a nice atmosphere at the start of the meeting? How did you get the person on side, make them liking you to make, make it more comfortable? How did you structure the meeting? Effectively, how did you manage things when they went off on a tangent? How did you deal with any conflict that arose?

How did you, how did you, how did you, it’s those questions. And if I’m asking you those on a regular monthly basis, you’ll start to get used to it and you’ll prepare for it before the meeting. So let’s say it’s now four months into using the Rose model. And we have that same conversation. Maybe on this occasion, you were waiting for some information from a colleague, cause you had to write a report and the colleague was procrastinating.

Thank you. And you’ve mentioned that last week in our weekly catch ups, you’re finding it very hard. You need to get information from this person, et cetera. Great. Okay. You’re happy to manage that Fay. I’ve asked you in the weekly catch up. Yeah, I’ll deal with it. Fine. In our monthly, I summarize what you’ve done, but then I’m really curious.

So Fay, how did you, how did you deal with that procrastinating colleague? And now, because you understand the question, you tell me things like this. You say, well, the first thing I did was to set them a smart objective that was time bound. So they knew when I needed the information by the second thing I did was you gave them a what’s called a swift.

Say what’s in it for them. You gave them a swift, right? So you get the benefit of responding in good time to you. The third thing I did was the fourth thing I did was and actually the fifth thing I did was and you know what? It really worked because now blah, blah, blah. Right. So what have we got? We’ve talked about how you handle difficult meetings.

We’ve talked about how you handle procrastinating team members, how you did those things. We talked about this, this, this, this, how you’ve done all these things. And now it’s our mid year review. Okay. The beauty of it is we can now in our mid year, and this is layer four, by the way, out of five in our model, in the mid year review, or the quarterly review, whatever.

I can say to you, Fay, over the last three months, the last six months, whatever it is, can you see how you’ve developed? Think about it, right? Six months ago, when you were handling difficult customers in meetings, you had no idea how to make it a success. Six months ago, when you had to deal with difficult colleagues who wouldn’t interact with you, you had no idea how to deal with that.

Look at how you’ve grown. Look at our graph over time, that bottom left to top right line, look at the growth you’re showing. end of year review, which is, which is layer five on the model. I expect you now, Fay, if I play this right, I’m expecting you to come back to me to say, I’ll take your face. So tell me, how have you developed over the year?

What have you done? Where have your improvement, your growth areas been? And you’re saying to me, difficult colleagues, meetings, selling stuff, whatever it might be, you’re coming back to all this. And it’s amazing because you are getting so excited with me to start. Just to show it’s brilliant. I’m a master at handling difficult customers.

Now it’s brilliant. I’m, I’m so fantastic at handling difficult colleagues. I’m so layered up with skills and techniques. My toolbox is overflowing and it’s purely on the back of the conversations we’ve been having, you say to me, that’s helped me identify not just what I do. I’ve got to have a meeting.

How you’ve done it, how you go about handling those meetings, because you and I have been very communicative about it and I’ve supported you and helped you develop in terms of how you’ll handle those things. I might have asked you how you, how did you handle it? But I might say also, did you do these things?

And let’s refer to our behavior framework and look at whether you did these things properly. And can you do these things next time to see if they work out? Another example, I get you into a place where you are going to be a deputy to me for being a team leader. Let’s say. So one of the responsibilities is to handle our team meetings.

Perhaps those, those weekly team meetings or the ad hoc team meetings. And you’ve done a couple, but you found that haven’t gone very well. So we talk about it. You know, what did you do? How could you improve that? And you’ve got some ideas and I give you some ideas as well as part of our monthly catch ups.

And we say, let’s try that next month. Or let’s try that over the coming four weeks. Talk about it next month. And we do. And again, you can expect. Yeah, well, one of the things I did was I created an agenda. So simple. But you say it was so good because it helped me stick to timings. It helped stop us going off on tangents.

So simple an agenda. I never thought of doing it before. But because we talked about it last month and I’ve applied it over the last few weeks, I’m only ever going to run a meeting with an agenda. Your graph is going up diagonally towards the top right corner. That’s what we want. And of course, and I’m going to stop talking in a minute, but of course, what we also want in stages four and five are the other kinds of things like, you know, your own personal objectives, your career goals.

And of course, we talk about those and we reflect back on those in that third layer, the how, the monthly catch up. My final point of course, is Where’s the link through all of this? If you’re an absent manager, your team member won’t open up to you. So when you say, how did you deal with that meeting? How did you deal with that difficult colleague?

I don’t know, I just did. Because they don’t trust you. They’re thinking, why are you asking me that question? You’re my manager, you should know the answer. You tell me. Whereas if you have a good relationship, you’re a present manager, full of trust, liking, you’ve demonstrated you value them. They won’t see it cynically or negatively or like you’re manipulating them.

It’s a good relationship. They’ll think, Oh, okay. Yeah. How did I do it? Oh, I don’t really know. Can you help me with that? Or, well, I think I tried doing this. Does that sound right? It will be a much more open conversation. So the daily or the regular throughout the week catch ups so important in layer one, not just talking about work, how they, you know, how they’re getting on family life, personal life, that kind of thing.

Frees you up to do the what stuff in layer two. Quite quickly. Then layer three is the how. How do you do what you do? And that’s the key part to development, which then means in layers four and five, your midyear quarterlies, whatever, and your end of years can reflect back on what you’ve done.

Demonstrate, show the growth, give evidence towards the personal growth, plus also career and personal goals. And at the end of the year, yeah, okay, you’ve met your corporate objectives, you get your bonus, you go on holiday. Fantastic. But Fay, you would also go home after that end of year review and you would turn to your husband and you’d say, I can’t believe how much I developed over this year.

I can’t believe how rubbish I was this time last year and how amazing I am now. I’m a superstar when it comes to whatever it might be. I can’t wait for next year. My manager’s fantastic. They’ve really helped me and that’s what we’re after.

Fay Wallis:

Oh, there are so many interesting and brilliant components of what you just taught us through, James.

I think one of them is what you were alluding to when you said about the agenda and you said, Oh, I’ve started using an agenda now. And wow, meetings go so much better. And you used the words, Oh, it’s a simple thing. And with your framework, it doesn’t feel complex. It does feel simple. but effective. I think all of the best tools are simple, but powerful.

So if you start putting the advice into action, you’re going to start seeing results. And this whole mention of the how questions, I think that, That is just absolutely key. I have an HR planner and for anyone who has a hardback version of it, this year, I’ve been running a monthly planning session. So anyone who wants to join, who’s got the hardback planner can join me on a zoom call once a month.

And we use that time, however, it’s going to be helpful for them. But lots of us, including me use that time to fill in the monthly review. And one of the questions in there is. What did I learn this month? And I’ve realized that’s a question that people can actually find quite challenging to answer and will start worrying, Oh my gosh, I haven’t learned anything.

But I think that if you ask yourself, The questions that you have just been encouraging managers to use. So think about what have you done? How did you do it? You’ll very quickly start to see, actually, you have learned stuff. You’ve been trying new things out. You’ve been developing in it’s those small, little development points that build up to have a massive impact over time.

I think it can be tempting to think that development’s all about just doing a formal training course, and then hopefully putting all of that stuff into action. Well, that is part of it, but so much of the really powerful development is the incremental little bits of improvement that we’re making along the way.

So thank you so much for sharing it with us. Gosh, I could talk to you about it, I think probably for a good another couple of episodes, but unfortunately I know that our time together is coming to an end. So, I’m going to ask you the question that I try to ask every guest on the show, which is, do you have a book recommendation for us or would you like to share a confidence building tip?

James Rose:

Yes. And I thought you might ask this question cause I’ve heard you ask it on your other podcast as well. So I was thinking, do I have a book? Probably not. Cause there are so many good management handbooks out there and I, I must admit, I haven’t found anything. It might exist that is like the Rose model.

Um, that’s why I came up with it. So not so much a book recommendation, but a confidence builder, I think, and it actually alludes back to what you’ve just said, Fay, which is you can use the rose model doesn’t have to be done exactly as I’ve described it. You can adapt it according to what works for you and your team.

But I think one of the key things to do to help you as a manager, build your confidence in using it is to get your team member to do all the work, which also has double benefits, of course, because the time saver, but it would be. So, again, Fay, if you were in my team. I would say to you in the weekly catch ups.

I’d be saying, remember, I’d say, keep a diary. All those small little things that you’ve done in terms of how you went about it when you recognize you’ve done something and it makes you go. Oh, I did that. That was good. Note it down. Because then when we come to our monthly catch up, I can just say to you, Fay, so not only, you know, how’s your month been and what have you done, but tell me how you went about those things.

And actually I can sit back and just let you talk because you’ve been thinking about this all through the month and you can just regurgitate all the notes you’ve made, the diary you’ve kept when we have our conversation together. And so it makes, as a manager, it makes your life an awful lot easier, but it also empowers and engages the team member.

Some will do it more than others. Some will take more encouragement. But that means it’s easier for me and therefore helps me feel more confident with following the process because actually I’m, I’m bringing you on board to make it happen well.

Fay Wallis:

From the flip side of that, I now feel like people are going to think that I asked you to say that, which I promise I didn’t with the coming back to the HR planner again.

Gosh, I don’t normally talk about it so much in the guest episodes. That I’ve had someone say to me that where they were filling in their monthly review section every single month, which is a series of reflection questions to think about what’s happened in the month that’s just been, they were then able to go to the end of year review and they had so much content that they were able to share and prepare really effectively for.

So it almost didn’t matter whether their manager had been managing them well or not. Thinking of this from the other side of things as well, actually. If you’re sitting here thinking, Oh, if only my manager was using the Rose model, this would just be so wonderful. Then I’d really encourage you to do exactly what you’re suggesting, James, and keep a record.

And of course, if you want to use the HR Planner to do that, that would be wonderful.

James Rose:

Yeah, it’s a great resource.

Fay Wallis:

Well, anyway, enough of me plugging my own stuff. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It’s been great talking to you. For anyone who’s been listening and thinks, Oh, I need more of the Rose model in my life, or I need to bring this into the whole organization.

What is the best way of them learning more about your work or getting in touch with you?

James Rose:

Thank you. So my website is CX People, which is stands for Communicate Excellence. So it’s Charlie x-Ray people.co uk or LinkedIn. I’m on LinkedIn, James Rose CX people. Hopefully easy to find. But yeah, I’d love to chat more with anyone who’s has an interest in performance management and, and this kind of stuff you can

hopefully tell I’m quite passionate about it because I know it works. And we’ve used it in lots of different companies as well. And it’s, it’s definitely producing results. So happy to chat if anyone would like to.

Fay Wallis:

Fantastic. And I’ll make sure that I pop links to your LinkedIn profile and your website in the show notes so that they’re nice and easy to find.

You’re very welcome. Well, all that leaves me to say is a heartfelt thank you again and goodbye. I hope we’ll get to catch up again soon though, James.

James Rose:

Yeah, me too. Thank you, Fay. Good chatting.

Fay Wallis:

That brings us to the end of this episode. As always, I really hope you found it helpful and I’d love to hear if anything in particular resonated with you or if you would like to put any of James’s ideas into action.

You can always reach me on LinkedIn or through my website which is brightskycareercoaching. co. uk And if management is a topic that you’re keen to learn more about, other HR Coffee Time episodes that you might find useful to listen to next are episode 127, which is called what to do if your boss is a micromanager.

Episode 117, which is called how to create a performance management process that drives success with Lucinda Carney. And that’s actually the most popular episode I’ve released this year. There’s also the next episode that I’m due to release where we’re going to be looking at coaching skills for managers, so I hope you’re going to enjoy that one too.

But finally, before I say goodbye for now, can I ask you for a small favour? If there’s anyone you know who you think would find this episode helpful, please do share it with them and encourage them to listen to it. So you could take a screenshot and WhatsApp it to them, or you could share it on LinkedIn or send them the link over email, however, it’s going to be easiest for you because I would love to help as many HR and people professionals as I can with this free podcast.

Thank you so much. Take care. And I’m looking forward to being back again soon with the next episode for you.

Transcript
James Rose:

That underpins the whole ROSE model, which is how can you be more of a present manager, someone who builds the relationship with the team member to such a point where not only are you interested in their welfare and you show you value them, but on the back of that, it means you have much more open and constructive and development oriented conversations.

Fay Wallis:

Welcome back to HR Coffee Time. It's great to have you listening today. I'm your host, Fay Wallis, a career and executive coach with a background in HR, and I've created HR Coffee Time, especially for you, to help you have a successful and fulfilling HR or people career without working yourself into the ground.

A big challenge you might be facing at the moment is trying to figure out how to foster great management within your organization, how to help people be brilliant managers. It's a topic I've wanted to cover in more detail on the podcast for a while because bad management has such a negative impact on everyone and you're the one who's often left to deal with the fallout, whether that's dealing with performance management issues, grievances, or high turnover in teams that don't have strong managers.

But there's so much advice and information out there about how to be a good manager that I know it can feel overwhelming and hard to know where to start. I also think a lot of the advice can feel very theoretical rather than practical, which makes it difficult to put into action. If you have management responsibilities yourself, you might also be worrying about how to be a great manager for the people who report in to you.

I've had lots of HR and people professionals say to me that they find it easy to support other managers in the business with advice on how to manage their team, but they can find it hard to find their own confidence in themselves as a manager. And then they worry about whether they're doing a good enough job.

So this episode is here to help no matter what. which point you're at, whether you want to sort out having great managers in the organization or you want to become a better manager yourself. You'll be hearing from my guest, James Rose, who is very generously sharing his Rose model with us, which is made up of five essential techniques to become a great manager.

I love how practical James's advice is. And I think two favorite pieces of advice that he shares in the episode are on how to run good team meetings that don't drag on forever and feel pointless and how to help people develop and grow, and perhaps even more importantly, to help show them that they're developing and growing.

James has trained well over 20, 000 managers during his career, helping them to be more capable, confident, and successful. Oh. He's a sought after trainer, speaker and coach working with globally recognised companies, including KPMG, HSBC, Honda, Chelsea Football Club, Carphone Warehouse, Capita, Disneyland Paris and many more.

I really hope you're going to enjoy learning from James as much as I did. Let's go ahead and meet him now.

Welcome to the show, James. It's so wonderful to have you here. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Oh, you're very welcome. And incredibly, you have trained more than 20, 000 managers throughout your career. I can't quite believe it. It's such an amazing amount. And I know that you've created your own management model, which is called the Rose model.

I'd love to know how you developed the model. Can you talk us through how you did it?

James Rose:

Yeah, of course I can. So first of all, I called it the Rose model because I, Couldn't think of anything more imaginative than using my own surname. So I went, you know, in line with the Abraham Maslow style of labeling your own model.

But where it came from, well, I've been working either as a manager or with managers for over 25 years. And what I have noticed over that time Is that often managers that the best team members get promoted into a managerial position and likewise, the business doesn't necessarily give those same people the time and space to be a manager.

It's an add on task. So people are promoted into these roles that they don't necessarily have the training for. or the knowledge of how to do well and yet they're expected to do it in addition to their normal tasks. So it becomes something that is often forgotten about or relegated into second place or deprioritized, those kind of things.

So when I was a manager myself, it was very hard to find the time to performance manage staff well. And by that, I mean, build strong relationships with team members, build good levels of trust, demonstrate how those same team members are developing and flourishing in their roles. And helping people feel confident and happy at work.

It's very difficult to spend the time and invest that time in doing those things. So having become a trainer of managers, what I found was those same managers were telling me what I'd experienced myself. And how difficult it was for them. And of course, when you're a trainer, you can open up conversations and say, well, how do you deal with that?

And what are your strategies and what are the big challenges and the pain points for you? And I'd be noting all those things down and learning from the people that I was training at the same time. And it just became more and more clear in my mind's eye that there was an obvious route to becoming a better manager, a very practical, logical step by step guide, particularly for those people who don't have the time, the knowledge, or the experience to understand how to do it for themselves.

And that's what created this Rose model in, in the end.

Fay Wallis:

Oh, how fantastic. It's amazing how much that we can learn just from talking to people and seeing what it is that they're using, isn't it?

James Rose:

Absolutely. That's, that's right. A lot of those same people were saying, I'd love to be able to know how to do this properly.

And I'd like to have a set of. Guiding steps on how to do it well and knowing that perhaps at the end of my performance year, I know I performance managed and manage my team members well so that my own manager can say, Look how well you've done and look how you've done the things that you've done, and we can set a really strong set of objectives for next year on the back of what you've done.

The whole thing, the whole thing around the Rose model is to make. What is sometimes a bit, I suppose, nefarious or vague into something that is very tangible and practical and useful to apply.

Fay Wallis:

Well, you have got me on tenterhooks and I'm sure you've got everyone listening on tenterhooks. We're all going to want to hear what the Rose model is.

Are you happy to talk us through the steps?

James Rose:

Yeah, of course. So. Well, I suppose let's start off with the general overview of it, which is, I talk about absent and present managers. So if you're an absent manager, you are, and this is very generic, but you are typically someone who does the bare minimum. So knows they should be doing perhaps monthly catch ups with their team members and mid year and end of year reviews.

But that's typically as much as you do, unless there are real challenges or problems that you need to deal with straight away. And in that scenario. It's kind of clear that if you were a team member of that absent manager and you had a problem, so let's say your, your parent had just been admitted into hospital and was feeling very unwell over a period of two or three months, and you had to step up and look after them, and it was causing you stress and causing you to feel distracted.

Would you want to tell your Absent manager who you don't have that relationship with that. Actually, things are tough for you right now, and you need a little bit of advice and support. You probably wouldn't because the trust and the rapport isn't there. And let's face it, you probably wouldn't find the time to speak to your manager about it anyway, because they're so busy and off doing their own things that it will become quite difficult.

Compare that to what I call a present manager. So a present manager is one who, so let's say Fay, you and I work together and you're my manager. What do you do on a regular basis to show that you're present and to build trust and rapport and the relationship with me and, and value me? Well, typically, probably we know each other quite well.

You probably know that I've got two kids. You probably know what my hobbies are. You probably know what I enjoy and don't enjoy about being at work and where my strengths and perhaps development areas are because we talk regularly, but we don't just talk about work. We talk about personal stuff too. As much as I'm comfortable with.

And then when I have this same scenario, a parent goes into hospital, they're unwell for two or three months, I'm going to be much more inclined to tell you about that and seek support and advice from you because I trust you and I like you and I, and I know that you value me and you'll, you'll do everything you can for me.

So you're a present manager. And that underpins the whole rose model, which is how can you be more of a present manager? Someone who builds the relationship with the team member to such a point where not only are you interested in their welfare and you show you value them, but on the back of that, it means you have much more open and constructive and development oriented conversations.

So the rose model has five layers to it. So what I'll do is I'll talk through those five layers, and this is all about how you become more of a present manager, but doing it strategically and consciously to build the relationship.

Fay Wallis:

Oh, it sounds like it's going to be an incredibly useful model. I can imagine so many people will be listening right now and either thinking.

Oh gosh, am I a bit more of an absent manager than I mean to be? Or they'll be thinking about managers within their organization. I think one of the biggest challenges for HR professionals is ensuring that there's great management in place in the organizations that they're in. And there so often isn't, and there's.

So much advice and so much information out there about how to become a good manager, that it can actually be overwhelming. So I think it's going to be quite exciting for us to hear a contained model. That's a great starting point. So I'll stop talking and I'll let you get started with talking us through it.

James Rose:

Thank you. Okay. And you make an excellent point about corporate culture as being so important to how managers look after their team members. So, and again, this is again, why this model is all about consciously and strategically choosing when and how to engage and interact to look after support and develop your team members.

So yes, so five layers, layer one at the top, What are you doing on a regular basis, perhaps daily, perhaps every other day, but what are you doing just to check in with your team member? So I've asked thousands of managers that question, and most of those managers will say, you know, on a daily basis, I'll ask them, what are they working on today?

Or How's their week going or any problems? And that's very typically what a manager does to check in with a team member. And whether that's face to face, virtually doesn't matter. That's the questions. But of course, when you do that and you do it regularly, A, it becomes a bit repetitive and monotonous, therefore artificial.

But it also what you're saying, the subtext, your team member is, I value you as a commodity. I value you as, as what you can produce for me and whether you can meet your objectives, not as a person or as a human being. And of course, there's no option to build trust or the relationship in that conversation.

So when we check in with our team members, which most managers will do on a regular basis, but when we check in with the team member, we need to be very mindful of not just treating them like a commodity or transacting with them as a human being, as someone we want to have a relationship with, you know, business relationship.

And different team members will respond differently to that, of course, some will open up more than others. And you respond appropriately and you flex your approach because of that. Just typically what we're doing is, so again, Fay, I'll use you as my example. You're now my team member. I happen to know that one of your kids is off to university soon.

So you might be going on a trip to visit a university. And so come Monday with you go on the weekend. So come Monday morning, we're both, you know, chatting in the little kitchenette area in the office, or we have a regular catch up on teams, or maybe I just send you a quick email. It doesn't matter. But I just say to you, Hey, how's it going?

You have a good weekend? What did you what did your son think about so and so university? And it The subtext there, whether you consciously recognize it or not, the subtext from you is, Oh, James, he's nice. He cares. He remembers. He looks after me. He's interested in me. I like him for that. And then once you get that reaction to me, and of course it's got to be done appropriately, I can't look like a stalker and anything like that, you know, nothing too much about you.

But once we have that sort of relationship where we just disclose a bit more about each other, know each other a bit better on the back of that. It means when we come to stage three in the model, which I'll talk to you about in a moment, because there is more trust and liking, the conversation is much more open and free and gets a bit deeper, gets below the surface.

Fay Wallis:

It's really about building that solid foundation, isn't it? And so important what you're saying about showing an interest in them as a whole person, not just someone who's there to deliver a job. But I won't interrupt you. I'll let you carry on and talk us through the next stage.

James Rose:

Yes, at stage one. It's it's a brief conversation, just checking in, seeing how they're doing.

You'll do it more often with some less often with others. Go into more detail with some and less with others. Fine. It's what's appropriate. And then on a weekly basis, and a lot of managers will do this, but some won't on a weekly basis. You now bring your team together. So it depends on the size of the team.

How long this conversation takes. But let's say there's six people in the team. It could be a 10 minute conversation. Done virtually done face to face doesn't matter, but the whole team comes together. Maybe on a Monday morning, maybe a Friday afternoon, maybe both. If it's a Monday morning, it's what's everyone working on this week.

If it's a Friday afternoon, it's how's the week gone? Give us a summary. And the manager will literally sit there with an egg timer. And maybe you could do that using some software on the computer these days. Doesn't have to be a literal egg timer. And it will be 60 seconds. Bob, you know, Monday morning.

Bob, go. What are you working on? Thank you. Moving on to Francis. Francis, what are you working on? Go. 60 seconds from all six people. Now, the beauty of doing it this way, and it's a bit of a lean methodology way of doing things as well, but the beauty of doing it is. From a managerial point of view, you get to know exactly what's going on with the team, but in brief, which means you can nip things in the bud if you need to, and also you can provide support if you need to.

Additionally, because the whole team is together for this short 10, 15 minute power meeting, it means the team is more engaged because it's not an hour long. Oh, this again can't be bothered. So the whole team is engaged. And also, and again, Fay, I'll use you with Francis and Bob. So now, Fay, you say, as part of your 60 seconds, you don't give us all the usual stuff you're doing.

I've got all those, say, weekly reports to produce. We all know that. But it's the unusual things. You say, maybe, I've got a really difficult meeting on Wednesday with So and so from such and such company, I'm feeling a little bit nervous about it because I've heard they're a bit of a tyrant. Now, the beauty is when you say that, Bob says, Oh, don't worry, Fay, I've met with her before and yes, she is a bit of a tyrant.

But you know what I found worked? This. Let's talk about it afterwards. I can give you some pointers. And now as the manager, brilliant, my time is now freed up because I haven't got to sit with you and work through how you're going to make that meeting a success. You and Bob are going to do it. And then maybe you say, Fay, on Thursday, I've got the dentist.

I think they're gonna have to give me a filling. I hate the dentist. I'm not looking forward to it. So now we all know that on Thursday morning, you're gonna be a bit prickly about going to the dentist and a bit snappy with all of us because you're nervous. And then the Thursday afternoon, when you come back to the office and you've got a bit of dribble coming down the side of your face because you're still numb from the anesthetic, we can also understand why that's happening.

You know, so it's a chance for the team to get to work well with each other. Understand what's going on. It happens four or five times over the course of the month. And you as the manager have a really clear picture of what's going on. The key word being what, what's going on with each of your team members.

So task wise, you are all fully up to date.

Fay Wallis:

I'm liking this idea of an egg timer because you gave me a flashback to years ago, I used to sit in on a Monday morning meeting and everybody within the team would be there and oh, it just felt a bit like torture because it would go on forever. Some people would be super quick and just say, Oh yes, this is what I've got going on.

Um, and others would just really feel like they had to fill the time because we had an hour allocated for it and they would end up going through all of that stuff that you pointed out isn't necessarily relevant. So every single tiny thing they're working on, even if it's something that they had to do every single week.

So I'm quite liking this idea of. really narrowing the amount of time and using a device to help keep people on track. That sounds great. And I, I also like the purpose behind it. I think another reason that meetings can fall down or not be productive is because there's not a clear purpose. People just show up.

Thinking, well, I know I'm supposed to have a weekly team meeting, so I'll just let everyone talk and maybe we'll go around the room. And that's really what was happening in the company that I just mentioned that I used to work for. Whereas here, if the clear purpose is what's coming up. whether that's personal or professional and I guess maybe what you need help with, but yeah, it helps make it a much more productive meeting.

James Rose:

Absolutely right. It does. And I think people, if you introduce this way of working with the Rose model into your own business, it will take time for people to adjust to that way of working and understand what they should be talking about. It doesn't have to be 60 seconds. It could be 90, whatever, two minutes, but it will take time for people to adjust to that.

And when they do exactly as you say, Fay, it becomes a far more dynamic, useful, productive, and actually welcome meeting the people to attend.

Fay Wallis:

We had a guest on the show recently, actually, who was talking about agile leadership, Kate Madison Greenwell, and she talked about having a regular meeting and a slightly different format.

For anyone who's interested, I'd really encourage you to hop back to listen to that episode. I'll make sure that I put it in the show notes for you. But she said, just be prepared for the fact that the first few times you run it, it, it might not go perfectly because everyone's got to adjust and get used to it.

I think it doesn't matter what you're introducing. Whenever you introduce something new, Don't be disappointed if the first time you run it people seem a bit stilted or it's a bit awkward or it just doesn't go in the way that you'd like it to. I think perseverance and just testing things out a bit is always a helpful thing to keep in mind.

James Rose:

And I often say to people on my training courses, I say to them, blame me. You know, Tell your team members you went on a training course. You can tell them it was fantastic and the trainer was brilliant. But I say to them went on a training course. It got you thinking and you'd like to try something new, and it might not work properly the first time.

But let's stick with it because the principle is sound. And it's the same way of working here. You go back to your team members, say to them. You listen to this fantastic podcast. You got some great advice. It's given you loads of food for thought. You want to try something with them. Is everyone up for it?

Let's give it a go for the next four or five weeks and we'll see what happens. Then once people are in the zone, as you say, it becomes more normal and natural and it's, it's just the new way of working.

Fay Wallis:

Well, that sounds like great advice. Um, yeah, please do go ahead and tell everyone that you're trying this out because of listening to the podcast, but James, we're all going to want to hear what the next step in the model is.

Do you want to tell us?

James Rose:

Yes. Right. So brief summary, what have we done on a semi regular basis? Once, twice, three times a week, we've checked in with them, not around tasks, but around welfare and more sort of personal life stuff appropriate to what the team members wants to talk about tier two. If you like coming down the model tier two is on a weekly basis.

The team gets together just to talk about what the team is doing. And that happens obviously weekly over the month. Then step three is your monthly catch ups, which all managers should be doing as a minimum is a monthly catch up prioritized over other work. So again, we know that being a manager often is secondary to your primary task.

Your primary role. Monthly catch up should be prioritized. They can't always happen. I get it. Stuff gets in the way. But think about what you're telling your team member when you cancel or postpone your monthly catch up with them too often, you're saying to them, they're not a priority. You don't value them.

They're not important. And that destroys the relationship, which is exactly what we don't want to do. And why the rose model exists is to build the relationship, build the trust. So stage three is your monthly catch up. What's happening in the monthly catch up? This is all about the how. Okay, weeklies are the what?

What are you working on? Monthlies are the how? I would say again, in my experience, 98 percent of managers will not be doing this step and it's So damaging to the team member. So again, Fay, I'll use you. If I may, we have monthly catch up meetings prior to listening to this podcast, how I handled that with you is I would say, right, Fay, what have you been working on?

What are your objectives for the coming month? What challenges have you had? How did you deal with them? Or can I tell you what you should have done differently? And that's kind of how the conversation would go, but we don't really know what we're there for. And the meeting felt very repetitive because it's always the same way.

The problem with that is. In our mid year reviews and our end of year reviews, what happens? We look back over our monthly meetings and we can see that you've achieved all your corporate and personal objectives, which is great. We tick a box. Maybe you get a, you get a bonus on the back of that. Well done.

And you go back home when you tell your husband and whoever else wants to listen, yeah, I met my objectives and yeah, I got my, my bonus. Let's go on holiday. That's great. But you can't demonstrate Any personal development, if you think about it like a graph where the vertical axis shows development and the horizontal is your, over time, your, your year, you can't show development.

You can't see a diagonal line going from bottom left to top right because we haven't talked about it. You can say you met your corporate objectives, but you can't say that you developed. So in these monthly conversations, here's what they sound like. So Fay, we've met four times. It's not exactly this, but I'm using this example based on what we talked about in this podcast.

So Fay, we've, we've met four times over the last four weeks and I know what you've been working on. And I give a quick summary of that. You've, you've done this, this, this, this, and this. Does that sound about right Fay? And you go, yeah, that's a good summary. Thank you very much. Then I say, and, um, a couple of weeks ago, you mentioned that you were going to have that tricky meeting with that customer, that stakeholder, and Bob was going to help you out with how to handle it.

And you go, yeah, yeah. How did it go? And you go, yeah, it was good. And of course, now any great manager, what's your next question? It's a nice open question. And you ask, what was it that went well? Cause you want to, I want to keep you talking. I want to show that I value you. I'm interested in what you've done.

So you say, oh wow, this went well, this went well, this went well. Right, good. Another key question coming up. What did you do that made it go so well? That's a great question. What did you do? This is the how part that most managers miss. What did you do to make it go so well? And you respond, Fay, and you go, Uh, Don't know really.

Uh, just, I don't know. I just did it. I had a meeting, did what Bob told me to do. It went well. Again, it's going to be tough in the first few months of these monthly meetings because, because what's the answer to that? What did you do to make it go so well? What's the answer? If your company has a behavior framework or a competency framework, these are the things you're asking about, right?

The behaviors, the competencies. It's how did you create a nice atmosphere at the start of the meeting? How did you get the person on side, make them liking you to make, make it more comfortable? How did you structure the meeting? Effectively, how did you manage things when they went off on a tangent? How did you deal with any conflict that arose?

How did you, how did you, how did you, it's those questions. And if I'm asking you those on a regular monthly basis, you'll start to get used to it and you'll prepare for it before the meeting. So let's say it's now four months into using the Rose model. And we have that same conversation. Maybe on this occasion, you were waiting for some information from a colleague, cause you had to write a report and the colleague was procrastinating.

Thank you. And you've mentioned that last week in our weekly catch ups, you're finding it very hard. You need to get information from this person, et cetera. Great. Okay. You're happy to manage that Fay. I've asked you in the weekly catch up. Yeah, I'll deal with it. Fine. In our monthly, I summarize what you've done, but then I'm really curious.

So Fay, how did you, how did you deal with that procrastinating colleague? And now, because you understand the question, you tell me things like this. You say, well, the first thing I did was to set them a smart objective that was time bound. So they knew when I needed the information by the second thing I did was you gave them a what's called a swift.

Say what's in it for them. You gave them a swift, right? So you get the benefit of responding in good time to you. The third thing I did was the fourth thing I did was and actually the fifth thing I did was and you know what? It really worked because now blah, blah, blah. Right. So what have we got? We've talked about how you handle difficult meetings.

We've talked about how you handle procrastinating team members, how you did those things. We talked about this, this, this, this, how you've done all these things. And now it's our mid year review. Okay. The beauty of it is we can now in our mid year, and this is layer four, by the way, out of five in our model, in the mid year review, or the quarterly review, whatever.

I can say to you, Fay, over the last three months, the last six months, whatever it is, can you see how you've developed? Think about it, right? Six months ago, when you were handling difficult customers in meetings, you had no idea how to make it a success. Six months ago, when you had to deal with difficult colleagues who wouldn't interact with you, you had no idea how to deal with that.

Look at how you've grown. Look at our graph over time, that bottom left to top right line, look at the growth you're showing. end of year review, which is, which is layer five on the model. I expect you now, Fay, if I play this right, I'm expecting you to come back to me to say, I'll take your face. So tell me, how have you developed over the year?

What have you done? Where have your improvement, your growth areas been? And you're saying to me, difficult colleagues, meetings, selling stuff, whatever it might be, you're coming back to all this. And it's amazing because you are getting so excited with me to start. Just to show it's brilliant. I'm a master at handling difficult customers.

Now it's brilliant. I'm, I'm so fantastic at handling difficult colleagues. I'm so layered up with skills and techniques. My toolbox is overflowing and it's purely on the back of the conversations we've been having, you say to me, that's helped me identify not just what I do. I've got to have a meeting.

How you've done it, how you go about handling those meetings, because you and I have been very communicative about it and I've supported you and helped you develop in terms of how you'll handle those things. I might have asked you how you, how did you handle it? But I might say also, did you do these things?

And let's refer to our behavior framework and look at whether you did these things properly. And can you do these things next time to see if they work out? Another example, I get you into a place where you are going to be a deputy to me for being a team leader. Let's say. So one of the responsibilities is to handle our team meetings.

Perhaps those, those weekly team meetings or the ad hoc team meetings. And you've done a couple, but you found that haven't gone very well. So we talk about it. You know, what did you do? How could you improve that? And you've got some ideas and I give you some ideas as well as part of our monthly catch ups.

And we say, let's try that next month. Or let's try that over the coming four weeks. Talk about it next month. And we do. And again, you can expect. Yeah, well, one of the things I did was I created an agenda. So simple. But you say it was so good because it helped me stick to timings. It helped stop us going off on tangents.

So simple an agenda. I never thought of doing it before. But because we talked about it last month and I've applied it over the last few weeks, I'm only ever going to run a meeting with an agenda. Your graph is going up diagonally towards the top right corner. That's what we want. And of course, and I'm going to stop talking in a minute, but of course, what we also want in stages four and five are the other kinds of things like, you know, your own personal objectives, your career goals.

And of course, we talk about those and we reflect back on those in that third layer, the how, the monthly catch up. My final point of course, is Where's the link through all of this? If you're an absent manager, your team member won't open up to you. So when you say, how did you deal with that meeting? How did you deal with that difficult colleague?

I don't know, I just did. Because they don't trust you. They're thinking, why are you asking me that question? You're my manager, you should know the answer. You tell me. Whereas if you have a good relationship, you're a present manager, full of trust, liking, you've demonstrated you value them. They won't see it cynically or negatively or like you're manipulating them.

It's a good relationship. They'll think, Oh, okay. Yeah. How did I do it? Oh, I don't really know. Can you help me with that? Or, well, I think I tried doing this. Does that sound right? It will be a much more open conversation. So the daily or the regular throughout the week catch ups so important in layer one, not just talking about work, how they, you know, how they're getting on family life, personal life, that kind of thing.

Frees you up to do the what stuff in layer two. Quite quickly. Then layer three is the how. How do you do what you do? And that's the key part to development, which then means in layers four and five, your midyear quarterlies, whatever, and your end of years can reflect back on what you've done.

Demonstrate, show the growth, give evidence towards the personal growth, plus also career and personal goals. And at the end of the year, yeah, okay, you've met your corporate objectives, you get your bonus, you go on holiday. Fantastic. But Fay, you would also go home after that end of year review and you would turn to your husband and you'd say, I can't believe how much I developed over this year.

I can't believe how rubbish I was this time last year and how amazing I am now. I'm a superstar when it comes to whatever it might be. I can't wait for next year. My manager's fantastic. They've really helped me and that's what we're after.

Fay Wallis:

Oh, there are so many interesting and brilliant components of what you just taught us through, James.

I think one of them is what you were alluding to when you said about the agenda and you said, Oh, I've started using an agenda now. And wow, meetings go so much better. And you used the words, Oh, it's a simple thing. And with your framework, it doesn't feel complex. It does feel simple. but effective. I think all of the best tools are simple, but powerful.

So if you start putting the advice into action, you're going to start seeing results. And this whole mention of the how questions, I think that, That is just absolutely key. I have an HR planner and for anyone who has a hardback version of it, this year, I've been running a monthly planning session. So anyone who wants to join, who's got the hardback planner can join me on a zoom call once a month.

And we use that time, however, it's going to be helpful for them. But lots of us, including me use that time to fill in the monthly review. And one of the questions in there is. What did I learn this month? And I've realized that's a question that people can actually find quite challenging to answer and will start worrying, Oh my gosh, I haven't learned anything.

But I think that if you ask yourself, The questions that you have just been encouraging managers to use. So think about what have you done? How did you do it? You'll very quickly start to see, actually, you have learned stuff. You've been trying new things out. You've been developing in it's those small, little development points that build up to have a massive impact over time.

I think it can be tempting to think that development's all about just doing a formal training course, and then hopefully putting all of that stuff into action. Well, that is part of it, but so much of the really powerful development is the incremental little bits of improvement that we're making along the way.

So thank you so much for sharing it with us. Gosh, I could talk to you about it, I think probably for a good another couple of episodes, but unfortunately I know that our time together is coming to an end. So, I'm going to ask you the question that I try to ask every guest on the show, which is, do you have a book recommendation for us or would you like to share a confidence building tip?

James Rose:

Yes. And I thought you might ask this question cause I've heard you ask it on your other podcast as well. So I was thinking, do I have a book? Probably not. Cause there are so many good management handbooks out there and I, I must admit, I haven't found anything. It might exist that is like the Rose model.

Um, that's why I came up with it. So not so much a book recommendation, but a confidence builder, I think, and it actually alludes back to what you've just said, Fay, which is you can use the rose model doesn't have to be done exactly as I've described it. You can adapt it according to what works for you and your team.

But I think one of the key things to do to help you as a manager, build your confidence in using it is to get your team member to do all the work, which also has double benefits, of course, because the time saver, but it would be. So, again, Fay, if you were in my team. I would say to you in the weekly catch ups.

I'd be saying, remember, I'd say, keep a diary. All those small little things that you've done in terms of how you went about it when you recognize you've done something and it makes you go. Oh, I did that. That was good. Note it down. Because then when we come to our monthly catch up, I can just say to you, Fay, so not only, you know, how's your month been and what have you done, but tell me how you went about those things.

And actually I can sit back and just let you talk because you've been thinking about this all through the month and you can just regurgitate all the notes you've made, the diary you've kept when we have our conversation together. And so it makes, as a manager, it makes your life an awful lot easier, but it also empowers and engages the team member.

Some will do it more than others. Some will take more encouragement. But that means it's easier for me and therefore helps me feel more confident with following the process because actually I'm, I'm bringing you on board to make it happen well.

Fay Wallis:

From the flip side of that, I now feel like people are going to think that I asked you to say that, which I promise I didn't with the coming back to the HR planner again.

Gosh, I don't normally talk about it so much in the guest episodes. That I've had someone say to me that where they were filling in their monthly review section every single month, which is a series of reflection questions to think about what's happened in the month that's just been, they were then able to go to the end of year review and they had so much content that they were able to share and prepare really effectively for.

So it almost didn't matter whether their manager had been managing them well or not. Thinking of this from the other side of things as well, actually. If you're sitting here thinking, Oh, if only my manager was using the Rose model, this would just be so wonderful. Then I'd really encourage you to do exactly what you're suggesting, James, and keep a record.

And of course, if you want to use the HR Planner to do that, that would be wonderful.

James Rose:

Yeah, it's a great resource.

Fay Wallis:

Well, anyway, enough of me plugging my own stuff. Thank you so much for coming on the show. It's been great talking to you. For anyone who's been listening and thinks, Oh, I need more of the Rose model in my life, or I need to bring this into the whole organization.

What is the best way of them learning more about your work or getting in touch with you?

James Rose:

Thank you. So my website is CX People, which is stands for Communicate Excellence. So it's Charlie x-Ray people.co uk or LinkedIn. I'm on LinkedIn, James Rose CX people. Hopefully easy to find. But yeah, I'd love to chat more with anyone who's has an interest in performance management and, and this kind of stuff you can

hopefully tell I'm quite passionate about it because I know it works. And we've used it in lots of different companies as well. And it's, it's definitely producing results. So happy to chat if anyone would like to.

Fay Wallis:

Fantastic. And I'll make sure that I pop links to your LinkedIn profile and your website in the show notes so that they're nice and easy to find.

You're very welcome. Well, all that leaves me to say is a heartfelt thank you again and goodbye. I hope we'll get to catch up again soon though, James.

James Rose:

Yeah, me too. Thank you, Fay. Good chatting.

Fay Wallis:

That brings us to the end of this episode. As always, I really hope you found it helpful and I'd love to hear if anything in particular resonated with you or if you would like to put any of James's ideas into action.

You can always reach me on LinkedIn or through my website which is brightskycareercoaching. co. uk And if management is a topic that you're keen to learn more about, other HR Coffee Time episodes that you might find useful to listen to next are episode 127, which is called what to do if your boss is a micromanager.

Episode 117, which is called how to create a performance management process that drives success with Lucinda Carney. And that's actually the most popular episode I've released this year. There's also the next episode that I'm due to release where we're going to be looking at coaching skills for managers, so I hope you're going to enjoy that one too.

But finally, before I say goodbye for now, can I ask you for a small favour? If there's anyone you know who you think would find this episode helpful, please do share it with them and encourage them to listen to it. So you could take a screenshot and WhatsApp it to them, or you could share it on LinkedIn or send them the link over email, however, it's going to be easiest for you because I would love to help as many HR and people professionals as I can with this free podcast.

Thank you so much. Take care. And I'm looking forward to being back again soon with the next episode for you.