Welcome to this episode of HR coffee time. It’s wonderful to have you here. I’m your host, Fay Wallis, career coach and the founder of Bright Sky Career Coaching, where our mission is to help HR and people professionals have successful and fulfilling careers without working themselves into the ground. This is the third episode of HR coffee time where we’ll have focused on neurodiversity. The first time we covered it was in Episode 24, which was called understanding and supporting neurodiversity at work with Melanie Francis.

Fay Wallis: 00:00:37

And you might know if you’ve ever sent me a message on LinkedIn to say that you’re enjoying the podcast. But I’ll always reply to say thank you. And that often, I’ll ask if there are any topics I could cover that would be interesting or helpful for you. Well, if you’ve been listening for a while, you’ll know that one person, one listener called Devon replied with an amazing list of suggestions for me, one of which was the idea of focusing on neurodiversity in more depth, particularly from the points of view from people who work in HR, and have had a neurodiversity diagnosis themselves. So I went on to release Episode 59, which was called ADHD, a personal story of the strength struggles and strategies that help were I was joined by my guest, Julie white.

Fay Wallis: 00:01:28

And there’s another episode coming up after this one where we’ll be focusing on Tourette syndrome, and you get to meet Devon, but for today, I’m delighted to introduce you to the fantastic Cybill Watkins, Cybill has kindly agreed to come on the show to share her personal experience of autism, and neurodiversity. When I asked her if she had anything to share with me for this introduction, she sent me some wording over email. And I thought it was so perfect that it seemed best to just share her own words instead of me changing them into my own.

Fay Wallis: 00:02:04

So let’s hear from Cybill, she wrote to me and said, I have worked in payroll and HR for over 25 years, having left finance and fell into payroll. With my love – brackets – obsession with compliance and legislation, I have been lucky to have been able to diversify into HR. Having only learned about autism, and neurodiversity over the last couple of years, I finally have answers to so much of my life, and why I have such an ability to dissect laws and legislation. And I’m so passionate about them. I have also really enjoyed learning about what it means to be neurodiverse and the positive side we can bring to any business. I also enjoy sharing what I have learned. So I’m excited to be a part of this today. Let’s go ahead and meet Cybill now. Welcome to the show. Cybill, it is so lovely to have you here. I really appreciate you joining us today.

Cybill Watkins: 00:03:03

Thank you for having me Fay.

Fay Wallis: 00:03:05

You’re very welcome. And can I start our time together today by asking you to share your story of your journey to getting your diagnosis?

Cybill Watkins: 00:03:14

Yeah, so so my journey has only been very recent. It all started a few years ago, with a genuine comment from somebody very close to me, who just turned around to me and said all, you know, you’re definitely Aspergers. And I just took it as a comment, Yeah. Okay, whatever. And then my head started going, what’s that? Up came Google six hours later. It was like it literally was like a light bulb moment. And I was just like, wow, that explains so much of my life, from childhood of having no friends to being obsessed and very tunnel visioned to never being still to not being able to concentrate being told that I was highly intellectual and highly intelligent at school, if I just stop and think.

Cybill Watkins: 00:04:03

So after that, I learned a bit more about that, you know, sort of the traits, and I actually became quite obsessed with learning about autism and who I really am. And it just gave so much of my life and so many answers. So then I spoke to a GP, somebody that was new never met me before. And she turned around to me. So yeah, you’re definitely hitting my triggers, I’m going to refer you to adult services. And it was actually quite nice to have somebody behind me, particularly you know, that there’s the old stigmas that pitt against it, and particularly the generation I’m from, there wasn’t such thing, or if there was it was because they weren’t, you know, you’re perceived as misbehaving. So she sent a referral to my local adult services, and it got rejected, being told that I didn’t hit any of their trigger points.

Cybill Watkins: 00:04:56

So she was livid and you took it upon herself to refer me out of county on the right to choose, and also wrote a very strong letter back to my local adult services. Well, four months later, I received a 20 page questionnaire, which brought its own issues as well, because you have to have family to ask the questions. And I was never close with mine. My dynamics meant that I kept a heck of a lot of my life hidden. So I’ve actually filled it in, sent it off, thought nothing more of it, not getting my hopes up. And then all of a sudden, I got a letter saying, We’re gonna we’ve got an appointment for you see, psychologist, psychologist confirmed ASD, but also flagged that I had very high scores on the ASRS scoring mechanism on ADHD.

Cybill Watkins: 00:05:43

Oh, that was a whole new thing of like, I’m not hyperactive anymore, I go to bed at eight o’clock at night. But being an adult with ADHD is different, my brain won’t shut up, I can have a full blown argument at 3am in the morning with myself. Whereas as a child, I was hyperactive. And he’s since referred me now to adult services, again, for the ADHD diagnosis. And it’s just fascinating how they’re actually intertwined. Or whether you’ve got dyslexia, dyspraxia, all the other different variants of neurodiversity, how they all really tie in. So I’m on the three year waiting list for my authority for that diagnosis, and fingers crossed, I’ll be able to get the support on that side that I need as well.

Fay Wallis: 00:06:28

I really hope that you don’t have to wait the whole three years. I can’t believe how long that is. It’s such a long time, isn’t it.

Cybill Watkins: 00:06:35

But I think that there’s now this has become so much at the forefront and particularly with women. You know, if you say, well hang on a minute, I’ve masked my whole life. I mean, for me, personally, I mask because I don’t want to be seen different. I already have mobility difficulties. I didn’t want another sticky label to go on. It’s something else to remember when you have to fill in all these forms and health, insurance questionnaires and everything else. But obviously, the times and everything else that’s happened over the last few years. Yes, it’s a long wait. But I know that there’s the support that my GP said that I definitely need will be there at the end of it. And it is. So long wait, but it’s also a relief, knowing why I am the way I am and how to suddenly change my life. And do what I’ve always dreamt of doing

Fay Wallis: 00:07:24

Can I just ask a couple of questions about what you were just saying, just for anyone who’s listening who’s not familiar with all of the terminology, would you mind explaining what ASD stands for?

Cybill Watkins: 00:07:36

It’s Autistic Spectrum Disorder. Some people out there, I know that, you know, I know people who are who who have Aspergers, but they don’t like that sort of description or that name that goes against the condition. So it’s more of you are on a spectrum. I’m not brilliant with all the acronyms and the names, but just know what each one means to me, my lifestyle, my work my job, and you know, how to be a productive member of the team, have a business and have a good life without having all the side effects that go with it?

Fay Wallis: 00:08:16

Well first of all, thank you very much for explaining what the abbreviation means. But also, you’ve raised such a good point, which is, as with all neurodiversity, it presents completely differently in everybody. And I really discovered this with my son, when he received his dyslexia diagnosis, before he received that I really didn’t know very much about dyslexia at all. I thought it was just what you find reading and spelling hard, but actually, he could read very fluently and really enjoyed reading. Spelling, yes, was difficult.

Fay Wallis: 00:08:49

I hadn’t realized that there were other things that he may be finding difficult and other things that he could really excel in. So you could have two people who are dyslexic, sitting next to each other. And actually, the way that their dyslexia presents is completely different, the both of them. And so of course, I’ve since realized as I’m trying to go more on this neurodiversity journey and learn more is that that’s the same for all neurodiversity isn’t it.

Cybill Watkins: 00:09:17

Definitely, big thing is sensory, in a lot of the conditions. So for me, I’m very noise sensitive, and doesn’t move into the countryside and I still have to sleep with earplugs in because even the trees at night, I can hear them that much. Whereas other people are light sensitive, where they need certain light levels. Other people are touched, it could be they can’t wear so manmade fibers, because it gives them a feeling that they can’t cope with. So yeah, because this is the whole story. There is no one story there is no one this is the way they are so throughout everything anybody wants to learn just ask whether it be ask a medical professional, somebody, it’s got it or somebody support you. It’s always just all because none of us are the same.

Fay Wallis: 00:10:02

I think that’s going to be the key message that you get through in our time together today, having had a bit of a chat about what we’re going to talk about. And it’s such a powerful message. As with so many things, I think often it’s the simple things have the biggest impact. So just talking, learning and asking each other to find out more about each other is such great advice. Thank you, Cybill. And there was one other thing that I wanted to ask you that you mentioned just now. And that is about masking. So are you happy to explain exactly what masking is just in case for anyone listening, they haven’t come across the term before.

Cybill Watkins: 00:10:41

So masking literally is, as the word says, it’s not putting a mask over something. So for me my masking of being unable to cope with strange situations, strangers, like have a social life you call it – it was drinking. So I use alcohol to hide the fact that I couldn’t cope with being out in public being out in strange places, or the way you come across, always happy and oh, yes, my life’s brilliant. And then all you want to do at the end of the day is curl up and cry, or you throw yourself into so much because you, you don’t want to be seen as not being able to do it or even jobs just going from one to another to another or just being a permanent temp, because you can’t settle in one particular environment. It’s hiding that way of life. And we’re all so good at multitasking but multitasking can be masking.

Fay Wallis: 00:11:39

Okay, so it’s very much about not revealing your true self, I suppose in a way of trying to make sure that you’re fitting in or coping with situations that you find challenging,

Cybill Watkins: 00:11:50

And even to yourself. Had I have known all this 20 years ago might have had a different career path, potentially, I would have been, I would have had a different type of lifestyle, I would, would have been able to have learned how to have coped rather than the natural instincts of for me – it’s fight or flight. I prefer flight, it’s a lot easier.

Fay Wallis: 00:11:50

I know that as you’ve been on this journey, one of the things that you’ve been able to explore are strengths and struggles. It’s something that that wonderful Melanie Francis mentioned when I had her on the show quite a long time ago now actually, she is the first person who I discussed neurodiversity with on HR Coffee Time. She was here back in episode 24. And for anyone listening if you’d like to go back, and listen, I think it’s a great introductory overview to this important topic. The title of the episode was, ‘Understanding and supporting neurodiversity at work’.

Fay Wallis: 00:12:50

And it was actually Mel – well we call her Mel for short, who introduced me to Cybill, so I must make sure that I say a proper thank you to her. And when I was talking to her on the show, I found it particularly helpful when she started talking about strengths and struggles and the fact that for all of us, we have got certain things that we realise and discover are our strengths. But other things that can also make life feel more difficult sometimes. So, going back to her description of strengths and struggles, would you be happy to share with us some of the things that you find more challenging at work.

Cybill Watkins: 00:13:27

Yes, certainly. And yeah, I also want to do a big shout out to Mel because she’s actually been a mentor to me in the workplace and outside of the workplace to be able to learn on this journey. So strengths, I think the big thing is there is no such thing as it’s either a strength or a struggle, just because it is to you. Somebody else might see it as a really good, positive. But you might say, well, I struggle with it. But actually, that’s a really, that’s a really good strength. So sort of so many of mine when I was doing my little bullet points before this was that well, here’s, here’s one, and here’s the other and they are mirrored.

Cybill Watkins: 00:14:02

So I think strengths. I mean, I could go on for hours, but I’ve got I never give up. Put everyone else before myself. Flat out whether it be work whether it be home. I’ve got extensive work experience, and take that as you will. I’m hyper focused. Within work. I’m actually obsessed. It’s not just I like to learn, I am obsessed. I’m obsessed with laws and legislations, and I live for the work. My ability to multitask. I want change will go into that. wanting change being a struggle as well because I can’t cope with change. I embrace routines and processes. I hope that people see me as a great team member wanting to support and help everyone else. And that gives me really great joy. I’m loyal to a fault. I want to please. I just dissect everything so that I can fully understand from start finish, won’t stop until I get the job done. But I’ll also do it as fast as possible, because I want to get it done. I’m open minded, I love learning. And for me, I’m an open book.

Fay Wallis: 00:15:12

And I would, probably add to that, ‘incredibly well prepared’, I think you are one of the guests who has prepped the most for any of the episodes that I’ve recorded with a guest. So it’s been wonderful to see all of that preparation and talk to you about what we’re going to be discussing today. And having looked at so many of those strengths, can I possibly ask you to dip into what you were describing as ‘the mirror’ and talk about what you can find more challenging at work?

Cybill Watkins: 00:15:39

Yes, so, so many of them. It’s hard because struggles can actually be everything can be turned from a negative to a positive. But I think the things that I struggle with most is again, I everybody else before myself. Stress increases meltdowns, my CV looks like a local business directory. I get bored easily. I’m easily distracted, noise sensitive. Can’t say ‘no’. I live in fear. But a fear of failure, fear of getting it wrong, a fear of not being liked fear of not being wanted, I can talk for England, so we should have had three hours for this. I can’t cope in new places. can’t cope with new people, can’t cope even going to a different shop.

Cybill Watkins: 00:16:27

It takes quite a while for me to understand change. So, although I want change, I can’t be blindsided. It takes me time, it’s likely tell me what the idea is. Why, what, where, when, how and why. Leave me alone. I’ll come back in a week and agree with you. Ask me to agree there and then and I’ll have a meltdown. I interrupt people because I forget what I want to say if I have to wait for them to finish. My brain never stops 24/7 never stops. Um, one last big thing is I could never have a clear desk policy.

Fay Wallis: 00:17:05

You could never have a clear desk policy. Does that mean that your desk has got absolutely loads on it?

Cybill Watkins: 00:17:09

If you could actually see it right now. It stacks my laptops on papers, I’ve got a pile of all my notes. I’ve got all my books behind me for HR. I’ve got coffee cups, stress balls. Some meds just in case I forget to take them around the floor all my other paperwork. But I know exactly where everything is.

Fay Wallis: 00:17:32

Brilliant – well because I can see you because although the audience can’t see us they’re listening through audio, we can see each other and your background looks immaculate. So you’re concealing that desk very well. I’ve just been get Okay, well, she’s just move her camera around so I can see it all. Okay, I believe you now. Having talked to us about all those challenges, I know that you have found some fantastic strategies to help. Could you share what some of those are?

Cybill Watkins: 00:17:57

I think the biggest thing is, is to ask for help and be upfront about your challenges. People don’t know what’s going on if you don’t tell them. And people don’t necessarily understand. Or they might say Well, yes, I’ve got somebody that is has this neurodivergent traits I know. But as we said earlier, everybody’s different. I think for me, it was to learn about myself and others like me, and others that are different from me as well. I join LinkedIn groups such as ADHD girls, follow neurodiversity 101 because there’s so many helpful tips hints from people that specialize in neurodiversity, or I’ll go through it.

Cybill Watkins: 00:18:34

Big thing, be honest with yourself. And again, that that you’ve got to bring down your barriers to be able to do that. And get a mentor, somebody near you in work, not necessarily a boss, not necessarily somebody in the same department, somebody who can help you get out of a meltdown that understands if you ring and shout help, they need to try and make themselves available. And I must admit, Melanie Francis, thank you very much for getting me out quite few meltdowns over the last year. But without that, it can be very, very lonely.

Cybill Watkins: 00:19:08

And if you do end up in burnout, take time out. Just because you feel you have a week or two off on the sick, you feel better. Knowing how to come back to work financial reasons, you’re going to crash again. So get some adjustments in place, get the support in place, join support groups, and take time out to properly recover. Don’t just go I’m fine. I’m going back headfirst ‘bull in a china shop’ as I was described as as a child because all you’re going to do is relapse and take that time to do to learn about it.

Fay Wallis: 00:19:44

It’s great to hear all of those practical strategies. And I had no idea that there are actual LinkedIn groups. I have heard there are Facebook groups, but that’s brilliant to see LinkedIn getting in on the action as well and people are really utilizing LinkedIn to support each other.

Cybill Watkins: 00:19:59

Yeah, I found them absolutely wonderful because it’s not only seeing so Professor Amanda Kirby, who’s a specialist from her sort of side and the research, but it’s people who live with it. And then it means I can then help my husband live with me.

Fay Wallis: 00:20:15

I know that Amanda Kirby has been mentioned before, she was mentioned in the episode with Melanie Francis, and I follow her on LinkedIn as well now, and I would completely agree, she just shares the most incredible research and information on that.

Fay Wallis: 00:20:28

And so simple for anyone who’s listening today, who works in HR and thinks that they may be neurodiverse. But they haven’t had a diagnosis and they haven’t started exploring this for themselves yet. What would your advice to them be?

Cybill Watkins: 00:20:44

Do your research, the diagnosis may not be the be all and end all for some people. Some people may need it, because they need some additional support other people, it’s just answers. But do your research and go and speak to your GP. And the GP procedures, they’ll ask you some basic questions. So I’d very much recommend doing some research on the conditions and where you see a trigger point write down about a experience that is for that. So do you have any obsessions or anything you have to do daily? A routine? Definitely, yes, I have to do X, Y, and Z before I can get out of bed. Do you flip the light switch on 10 times do you go around checking house windows 10 times before you leave?

Cybill Watkins: 00:21:26

Write all the examples down, because it’ll be fast, furious as a quick 10 minute appointments, and you need to get the issues across. Prepare yourself that you might not get that official diagnosis because there is a invisible line that you have to cross. And you know, research does show that women are not getting diagnosed as much as men because the way the diagnosis was designed originally. But that doesn’t mean you’re not neurodiverse, it doesn’t mean that you don’t have that amazingly wonderful, diverse brain. All it means is that the NHS doesn’t have that tick box, but you can still get the help or support from your company. Because if you share those traits, 12 months or more, they have to help you there.

Cybill Watkins: 00:22:11

And if you need help with workplace adjustments, look at access to work, because they’re not just there to help people to get a taxi, but they can look at a mentoring, paying for mentoring, paying for other things. And, you know, just speak with with your employers speak with your peers, find that that person that can help and a lot of employers now setting up domestic groups to help mentor. You know, we have the most amazing minds, and we’re dedicated and loyal. So what employer wouldn’t want that?

Fay Wallis: 00:22:43

Such brilliant practical things for people to be able to take away, I know that this is going to be a real help not just for one person, but for so many people who are listening. And I know that there will be lots of people listening, who want to make sure that they are creating an inclusive workplace, that they’re supporting their neurodiverse colleagues as much as possible, but they may not be sure what the best way of going about that is. So what would your advice be to them? For anyone who’s listening and really wants to make sure they’re being inclusive? What can they be doing?

Cybill Watkins: 00:23:18

In this section, I could go on for hours. Because the thing is, there is no right or wrong. Every person is different. I think the biggest things as a line manager, as a colleague, and as an employer, listen, listen to what the employee has to say. And just remember, we can be very literal in what we’re saying. So don’t make assumptions on that. Ask, ask questions to understand the strengths and challenges. You know, maybe do what I’ve done prep for this, just list them down and see which ones are affecting you in your position. And you can have some support and help with help them do they need help planning prioritizing to they need extra time. Don’t blind sight. That’s one of my biggest bugbears. Appropriate training or there’s some additional training leads that could be met. Get to know the employee on a personal level, you know, at the end of the day, we’re all human.

Cybill Watkins: 00:24:13

Find out their triggers. Is it a sensory trigger? Is it because there’s certain words that are triggers? So don’t just say no without a reasonable doubt say you’ve said this, you’ve said that? Things like hot desks do they struggle with a hot desk, they need that dedicated space? Hybrid working? Do they need to routine so they’d need the same days in the office every week at the same desk? remote working? You know, give them plenty weeks or months notice to go to the office don’t they’ll want you in the office tomorrow. Because it can take a lot of planning to be able to get around to be able to do it. Particularly with the remote working where we can be hundreds of miles away from our office. Information and card wanted when I started which I didn’t realize until afterwards was a buddy because I was going to strange place in a strange city.

Cybill Watkins: 00:25:03

And I needed just could have done with somebody there to literally have my hand take me to the office instead of me standing in the courtyard in tears going, I can’t do this. But it’s a two hour journey to get home. Nevermind half an hour’s walk to get back to the station. To have that buddy, that isn’t the line manager on say, a close working colleague, but somebody that can understand you know, that knows your sensory triggers or your emotional triggers. Something else for new starters, informal chats with your team, before they actually start in the office, because there’s nothing worse of walking into an office as a newbie, not knowing the people. But I had that opportunity.

Cybill Watkins: 00:25:41

So I got to know some of them on a small personal level. I could walk in and I knew who who was who. I think a big thing for me is be mindful of how you word something and the consequences. So an example as if other people complain you are saying now. So, you know, you’ve got the word complain. And you’ve got saying no, in our nature, we don’t say no with my particular conditions. But it’s saying, can you tell me about what happened at this particular point? And what was your response? And what was your response to that? So we can fully dissect it a container and say it was because x, y and Zed to me, I’m a yes person. That to hear that I’ve said now. It’s quite shocking. And then it puts days and days and days of lack of sleep, because I’m over analyzing, I’m getting very upset. And I woke up every hour. And that’s all my brain thinks about.

Cybill Watkins: 00:26:35

So it’s, it’s thinking about the way you’re saying. And I think, for all of this together, somebody that I’ve recently found and found quite helpful is a Work Health passport. So there’s loads of them around you can get them from the Autistic Society you can get them Google for for the passports and it will have things like, Do you have certain trigger words, or the words that might cause your mouth down? How to approach me if there’s a problem? Because for me, constructive criticism, the wording is quite strong and quite offensive. So think about that. How do you approach me if there is that problem where you need to be able to give advice and use it more of a mentoring and tutoring rather than constructive criticism? If you know that you’re in the sort of job that might have to make last minute change? How do we go about making last minute change? How to approach it so that we can be 100% with you?

Cybill Watkins: 00:27:32

And being on the forefront of that change? Rather than again, the blindsiding you know, Teams meetings? Because they’re big nowadays? Are you happy with the camera on? Does that person like the camera on? Some people don’t but some people say yeah, actually, I can’t talk to somebody if I don’t see them on camera, things that cause stress, how to help me avoid stress. Also, my sensory needs, what makes me happy, who to contact if I’m struggling either at work, because I’m saying I’m having a meltdown, or somebody realizes that sudden and been really short. When that isn’t me, I’m really happy go lucky. So we’ve got all you know, go to my mentor.

Cybill Watkins: 00:28:12

So I think I think she’s having a bad day. Can you just give her a shout, make sure she’s all right. There’s loads of other things on there. But then you don’t have to stand up and go, This is me because a lot of people aren’t going to be comfortable, particularly early days, taken years for me to realize and actually now go I’m gonna shout the rooftops because my brain is fabulous. But I wanted done a few years ago, unless I’ve had an awful lot of alcohol. During network signups podcasts, learning modules, reach out to people that are doing these sorts of podcasts, reach out to the professionals, because everybody in this world is willing to help.

Fay Wallis: 00:28:50

I feel like I just keep saying thank you throughout this whole interview together, Cybill, but it’s because I really do mean it. It’s just amazing to hear all of those ideas and what shines through from them, as does so often, when I asked one of the guests for advice, is just how simple it actually is to be able to be inclusive, and to be as helpful and supportive as possible. Because everything that you have talked about just that finding out and asking and talking to your colleagues about, it’s going to be helpful for almost anyone who of us doesn’t want to know ourselves better, and know everyone around us better and be understood and know how to give feedback to each other and what makes us all tick.

Fay Wallis: 00:29:39

So I just think that really this advice is life skills for us all that goes well, beyond thinking about inclusion from a neurodiversity perspective. This is going to be helpful for us all for our lives. And you’ve really got me thinking about actually my group program inspiring HR like how I can try incorporate elements to make that even more inclusive. So before I say goodbye to you for the day Sippel, it would be brilliant. If you’re happy to answer the question I asked every guest who comes on the show, which is, what is your top nonfiction book recommendation for us today.

Cybill Watkins: 00:30:18

So I spend most of my time in fiction getting away from real life. But one book, and I think it’s very, very appropriate with this whole conversation Ant Middleton the fear bubble. It just gives somebody else’s perspective of overcoming diversity, overcoming fears. And he’s also done some other great books as well. But I think particularly after our conferences, social stay, is the third bubble. I’m tackling if there’s

Fay Wallis: 00:30:46

I hope you enjoyed meeting Cybill as much as I did. I’m so grateful for her for coming on the show and sharing all of her fabulous insights and personal experience with us. I will make sure that I put a link to the book that she mentioned in the show notes. And I’ll also try and find links to some of the resources she mentioned earlier on in the show notes as well.