Welcome to this episode of HR coffee time. It’s wonderful to have you here. I’m your host, Fay Wallis, a career coach and the founder of Bright Sky Career Coaching, where our mission is to help HR and People professionals have successful and fulfilling careers without working themselves into the ground.

Fay Wallis: 00:00:22

This week’s episode and next week’s episode are a little different to normal. The first thing about them that different is the fact that they’re aimed at people who aren’t already working in HR. Because I have so many people get in touch to ask for advice on changing career to work in HR, that I thought I should make an episode to help. And although I have lots of advice I can give personally, I thought it would be more powerful for everyone to hear from others who have managed to make the jump from that old career into a new HR career.

Fay Wallis: 00:00:55

So, I’m incredibly grateful to the amazing people who volunteered to come on the show and share their experience. In fact, I had so many people say they’d be happy to help that I’ve had to split this episode into two, because it would be way too long otherwise.

Fay Wallis: 00:01:11

The other thing that’s different about today’s episode to all the others, is that it’s the first time I’ve interviewed lots of different people on one topic, and then stitch their interviews together. So fingers crossed, it’s worked well, and you enjoy listening today and next week.

Fay Wallis: 00:01:28

If you’re already happily in your HR career, why not listen, and then let me know if you have any other tips you think it would be good to share about career change. I’d love to hear them and you can contact me at any time on LinkedIn or by sending me an email.

Fay Wallis: 00:01:43

If you’re listening today, because you want to change career to work in HR, I really hope you find this week and next week’s episodes helpful. You’re going to hear from a range of people from all types of career backgrounds, who have moved into different kinds of HR roles across different sectors. They share how they made the change what they love about working in HR, the challenges they hadn’t anticipated, and their advice to you, if you want to make the switch, but you’re a bit nervous about it, or you’re not sure how to.

Fay Wallis: 00:02:15

The first person you’re about to meet is Ruby Harrison. Ruby is an HR Advisor who works as part of a small HR team within a new organisation that has been created as part of the NHS. Here’s her story of how she changed career to get this role.

Ruby Harrison: 00:02:32

I was at university studying to be a doctor, I’d wanted to be a doctor since I was quite young, you know, since I was a child and I was at university, but I was retaking my fourth year of my degree. And it was quite difficult. And I was finding it very difficult, kind of academically, but also, personally myself. And when I stopped and thought about it, I realised that it actually wasn’t what I wanted to do anymore. And, you know, the idea of being a doctor didn’t appeal like it had done before.

Ruby Harrison: 00:03:10

So I left but I wasn’t sure what I wanted to do. So I worked in a doctors surgery for a year while I thought about what I wanted to do. And I was looking at different graduate schemes. And I came across the NHS graduate scheme because I’d realised that I actually, I did still like working in the NHS, but not in the things that I had been doing. And the NHS graduate scheme has quite a few different things you can do. You can do general management, you can do finance, or you can do HR. And there’s some other ones as well.

Ruby Harrison: 00:03:48

And looking at the HR scheme, I just thought it sounded really interesting. I thought the idea of still kind of working in the NHS and supporting that work, but supporting the staff rather than directly with patients sounded really interesting. I’ve always liked the idea of working with people. So HR made sense to me in that way. And the other thing was that doing the HR graduate scheme included doing a postgraduate diploma in human resource management and getting CIPD level seven through that. So I thought that would also give me you know, a lot of options for the future as well. So I applied for that and went through the application process and everything and managed to get a place on it. So I spent the last – well until July when I started my role – I spent the two and a half years kind of learning about HR, through working in three different organisations and getting to see quite a lot of different sides of HR as well as at the same time. Working on the CIPD qualification as well. So quite busy. But by the end of it, I knew that I really did like HR and that I wanted to carry on, which is why I applied for the job that I have at the moment.

Fay Wallis: 00:05:14

It’s great to hear it was such a positive experience for you. I have so many questions I could ask you, I haven’t ever attended a graduate scheme before, although I obviously know about them. But I’m sure that lots of people listening may not have been on a graduate scheme, either. I think maybe the first thing I’d like to ask you is how many people are on the scheme with you.

Ruby Harrison: 00:05:38

So as a whole kind of in the NHS graduate scheme, each cohort has about 300, 400 people. But that’s across all of the different disciplines. So my HR cohort was about 25 people. So we, when we did, some of our things were online, obviously, during COVID. But when we did get to get together at the university, our group was of about 25 people. But that was spread across the whole of England. So there was sometimes other graduates in the organisation I was working in, but not necessarily because everyone is spread out, and especially the HR one being a little bit smaller, you know, you kind of get to know certain people who might be working near you, but not necessarily. And as I say, especially with COVID, there wasn’t a lot of face to face time.

Fay Wallis: 00:06:37

Oh, that’s interesting. I wasn’t sure if you would get to be working alongside other graduates at the same time. So it sounds like potentially not. Just because it’s a graduate scheme, it doesn’t mean you need to have graduated very recently. At least I think that’s the case. Is that right?

Ruby Harrison: 00:06:53

Yeah, not at all. So lots of people, obviously kind of graduate and look at it, as you know, what they’re going to do as soon as they finish university. But there were lots of people who that wasn’t the case for at all, that were quite a lot of people who are in my HR cohort who had had other careers, both within and outside of the NHS and had decided that they wanted to kind of to do something new. There were people who were a little bit kind of later on in life and had children. And now we’re sort of looking at a career change after coming back.

Ruby Harrison: 00:07:32

There were other people who’d been to university and done one thing and then worked for a few years and had just decided that they wanted to do something different and thought that a graduate scheme was a good way to do that. So in a way, the the name ‘graduate scheme’ is a bit misleading, I think, to people because it makes it sound like you have to have just graduated. And actually, all it really means is you have to be a graduate of some kind.

Fay Wallis: 00:08:00

Which is just so brilliant to hear. Because I think when it comes to career change, it’s something that is completely disregarded by most people, I have a whole career change programme, which I’ve had for years. And I don’t think that whilst on that anyone’s initial thought has been, “Oh, I could look into being part of a graduate scheme”. Because not only can it be a wonderful way of getting a very good grounding, in a new discipline, like HR if you haven’t done it before. But of course, it is a job at the same time, isn’t it? So you are being paid while you’re, while you’re doing the studying and the learning at the same time as the working?

Ruby Harrison: 00:08:40

Yeah, which I think is is really important, obviously, as well, because it means that you kind of have, that you are able to earn money and to be able to, you know, pay for your expenses and things as well as actually kind of learning but at the same time, the learning is then funded by the graduate scheme you’re on. So you’re not having to, you know, self fund for courses and universities and all of that training. So yeah, I think it’s a really good option.

Fay Wallis: 00:09:09

And now that you’re in your fabulous new role, what is it that you like the most about working in HR?

Ruby Harrison: 00:09:16ple, our organisations, about: 1000 Fay Wallis: 00:10:14

And so having heard the things that you really like about working in HR, what are some of the challenges that maybe you hadn’t anticipated before you embarked upon your HR career?

Ruby Harrison: 00:10:25

I suppose it’s the flip side of what I like about it is that there are so many different kinds of questions you can get, there are so many different things that people need HR for that sometimes that can be quite full on, I think, and because it’s often things that are really important to people, like if there’s issues with pay, or leave, or illness and things like that, those are obviously quite, you know, can be quite emotional things. So you’ve got to try and help people in a way that’s, you know, sensitive to that. And when there are problems, or if there are, for example, you know, someone has a problem with their pay, that can be a really big thing for them. So I think I sometimes feel quite a big responsibility to try and fix all of those things. And sometimes that’s not possible, or it’s out of our control. And I, that’s the thing I think I find really challenging sometimes.

Fay Wallis: 00:11:29

What advice would you give to anybody who’s listening today, who is thinking of changing career to work in HR?

Ruby Harrison: 00:11:36

I think, to have a really good look at what different areas there are in HR, I think that was one of the big things I didn’t really know, was all the different things that are involved, and that the different roles you might be doing might not include some of them. So it’s a really good idea, I think, to really look into all the options, look into what different HR roles involve, and check that the one that you’re applying for, you know, will fit what you want to do. Because yeah, there are so many different areas. And if you’re kind of interested in more more of the OD or learning and development side of things, you might end up in a role where you’re just doing recruitment, and obviously that might not suit you, or suit what you want to do. So I think, yeah, having a real good look at what’s out there, and what can make up the whole HR profession and trying to get, you know, a little bit of an idea of what those different things are and what you like and don’t like.

Fay Wallis: 00:12:46

That’s such good advice, Ruby. And I know when I had my HR career, it’s something that I really wasn’t aware of at all, when I first embarked upon it. So again, for anyone listening today, if you’re thinking, oh gosh, I hadn’t realised that there are all of these different aspects to the whole world of HR. There is something called the Profession Map that the CIPD has created. And that can be a great starting point for going to have a look and seeing what are all the different specialities that you can either choose to specialise in for your HR career, or that you can try and make sure are going to be incorporated within the role that you take on. So I’ll make sure that I put a link in the show notes to the Profession Map if you want to go ahead and take a look at that.

Fay Wallis: 00:13:37

Now it’s time for you to meet Josh Halsted-McGlashon. Josh is an HR Business Partner for The Nurture Landscapes Group, where he covers all aspects of HR for approximately 750 to 800 colleagues who are based at locations across the Midlands, the North and Scotland. Here’s his story of how he changed career to work in HR.

Josh Halstead-McGlashon: 00:13:58

I’ve only actually been in HR for around three and a half to four years. I was heavily involved in Operations before that; mainly in a large corporate enterprise, covering all aspects of operations from a customer service perspective, and dealing with very large customer facing teams. That meant having quite a lot of HR responsibility within my direct reports. And I think I found a love for the people management side of my role, which led me down eventually a career path into HR. Got fed up in Operations, moved to a company, went for a sales manager position in a company, massively fluffed my interview, but got invited back for a conversation and they wanted to create a role in the business that they didn’t have, which was HR and Legal Manager, which had a bit of commercials in it as well from my operational days, because they saw that I had a passion for people and wanted to trial out this role with me.

Fay Wallis: 00:14:58

That’s absolutely amazing, I can imagine there are going to be lots of people listening, who are incredibly envious, where they will have been applying for HR roles as part of a career change, and not being able to get an interview. So it’s just absolutely incredible that you went and interviewed for something else. And all of this passion shone through which has resulted in your HR career.

Fay Wallis: 00:14:58

So, I eventually moved into that organisation and took the HR division forward, which was for me was, you know, one of those massive, massive changes, you know, you go from looking at operations. And then one day you’re confronted and you look after HR. And considering I’d never been involved in HR from a standalone perspective before, it was quite interesting. And it was very challenging. But yeah, that’s, that’s how I did it fluffing an interview, but impressing the Managing Director enough to invite me back.

Josh Halstead-McGlashon: 00:15:27

A lot of people say to me, you know, you’ve skipped a lot of levels within HR to get the job that you’ve got, you know, I’m very fortunate to hold what I see as a HR Business Partner role in a large organisation, given that I have skipped a lot of those traditional HR positions that you will usually go into, to get to that position, which, you know, I don’t take for granted at any one period. But I think it’s like you just said, you know, the passion that I have for colleagues and people must have shone through.

Josh Halstead-McGlashon: 00:16:18

And, you know, once you’ve managed people, you’ve managed people, and you know how to treat them. And the rest of it, you can learn as you go. And I’m fortunate that I’ve had a lot of mentors within, within my HR career as all those shorts, as short as it is, who have helped guide and mentor me down some of these paths.

Fay Wallis: 00:16:35

That’s such an interesting point that you make about mentors, because although I’ve just said, well, there’ll be some people listening who are really envious, there may be others who are going to have a similar thing happen to them, or who are going to find themselves in a more senior HR role than they had initially anticipated. And I think having a mentor can be such a wonderful way of helping you build your confidence while you’re stepping into a role like that.

Fay Wallis: 00:16:59

So, I feel I’ve got to ask you, then how did you find these mentors who have been helping you along the way?

Josh Halstead-McGlashon: 00:17:05

At first, you feel that they’re potentially critiquing what you’re doing or criticising what you’re doing. And I think it’s taking that step back, and actually seeing it for what it is, which is guidance, and mentorship. And I think for me, it was accepting that, you know, I’m my own biggest critic, it’s accepting that feedback for what it is, and opening your mind to actually taking that and doing something with it. And having that honest conversation around where you’re struggling where your pitfalls are. And I think it’s like, looking in the mirror and saying to yourself, right, you’re not perfect, you know, we all go to work. And we think that what we do is the best thing since sliced bread, and that we’re right. But it’s taking that accountability. To say well actually, I’m not right on this point. And this is where I need that guidance and support.

Fay Wallis: 00:17:54

So does that mean that they’ve been internal mentors, people within the organisation you’ve been able to turn to for, for that feedback and critique?

Josh Halstead-McGlashon: 00:18:02

Absolutely, yes, a lot of it has been line management. So in my previous role, I reported into the Managing Director, I was able to lean on him for support and guidance, and he was very forthcoming with it. But a man with a lot of experience. And you know, he was a very strong a guiding hand, given it was the first standalone job I’d had in HR, which he understood. And I think that’s why he was there as my mentor.

Josh Halstead-McGlashon: 00:18:26

Where I am now I was brought into the business by a very strong HR leader, who has guided me for the last 12 months. And then he’s took a step away from the business. And we’ve now got a new Chief People Officer who is fantastic, and very strong on the mentorship. So it’s absolutely great. But as well as that I have a lot of friends who work in HR, as you can imagine, you know, we’re all interlinked, and it’s leaning on them as well. And it’s very difficult to have that conversation with friends. Because you like to portray a front to friends that you are great at your job, and you know everything. But I lean on them the most I would say.

Fay Wallis: 00:19:04

Well, that’s brilliant to hear that you’re able to do that. And I think it can be so valuable being able to turn to our peers and friends within the HR community. So thank you, Josh, for sharing that. For my next question can I ask you now that you have this HR career, what is it that you like the most about working in HR?

Josh Halstead-McGlashon: 00:19:22

I think I am all about colleagues. And I think the thing with HR, and especially in the job I do, it’s like a balancing act between having the businesses back and supporting the business through strong policies and procedures, but also having the colleague back when we need to. And I think for me, one of the biggest kicks I get out of working in HR, as cheesy as it is, is is making the working environment a better one for people to actually enjoy and thrive in what they’re doing, and that they get a kick out of coming to work.

Fay Wallis: 00:19:53

And now that you’ve said what you like most about working in HR, it would be fantastic if you’re happy to share what the challenges have been that you hadn’t anticipated?

Josh Halstead-McGlashon: 00:20:03

Yeah, absolutely. I think, you know, when I look at my position where I am now I’m working with people that are a career, HR people, you know, they’ve worked in HR their entire lives, they’re, you know, they’re older than me, they, you know, they’ve done a bit more than me in the HR sphere. You know, I think that the top of my list from a challenges perspective is imposter syndrome. And it’s that it’s that thing that we all deal with, at some stage in our career, and that thinking, you’re not good enough to do the job you’re in, this role is too big for me, you know, I don’t know, enough, you know, I don’t know employment law, like the back of my hand, you know, I have to consult a manual or a website.

Josh Halstead-McGlashon: 00:20:44

And I think that’s probably the biggest challenge for me is that when you, you get something that you’re not used to dealing with, and your mind goes blank, and it sets in, well, maybe this is just too big for me, maybe I need to give it up or, you know, look somewhere else. I think one of the other challenges that I have is when I look at colleagues, and look at the complications they’ve got in their lives, and how as a business, you know, we are here as we have a duty of care to try and support them as much as we can, and how that impacts their work. And how we have to take them through different policies and procedures and how that impacts them further. That’s another challenge in terms of, you know, having to take that home and try and turn it off at the end of the day, it can be quite difficult. I’d say they’re the two main challenges that I have in HR.

Fay Wallis: 00:21:34

I really appreciate you being so open about that, because especially when it comes to impostor feelings, because they affect so many of us at different points in our career. But I don’t think that we’re all very open about talking about that a lot of the time. And what that can lead to is everyone thinking, Oh, it’s just me who feels like this. I’m the only one when actually, it’s so many of us at various points. So I think that’s fantastic that you brought that up, thank you. And also the past about it can be hard to switch off and not take aspects of the job home with you as well.

Fay Wallis: 00:22:12

Josh and I went on to carry on talking about impostor feelings in quite a lot of detail. But while I’m sitting here now editing the podcast, I’ve realised I don’t have time to include them all, unfortunately, because I have too much audio for this episode. So Josh, if you’re listening, I’m so sorry, I haven’t included all of this part. I’m going to move along now to the final question that I asked Josh, which was what advice he had for anyone who is listening to this and would like to change career to work in HR.

Josh Halstead-McGlashon: 00:22:42

I will say do it, if you’ve got an opportunity, if you see that job online, and you think I score 75% of the way through on what that job is offering, then I would say go for it, apply for it, you’ve what have you got to lose, you know, you’re probably you’ll probably get an interview. The markets, the market is the market at the moment, you know, people are looking for strong candidates. And one of the things I hear the most in HR at the moment is I’m looking for that person with a different skill set to what I’ve got in my team already.

Josh Halstead-McGlashon: 00:23:11

You know, when I am looking for somebody at the moment, and I’m looking for a person with a different set of skills to someone I’ve already got in my team, or the other two people that I’ve got in my team. And I don’t want them to have HR experience because I want to mould them into what we need to get the job done. So I would say don’t look at it in terms of if they’re looking for CIPD. As you know, that’d be great to have, don’t worry about it apply and sell yourself on your CV.

Fay Wallis: 00:23:37

Having met Josh and heard how he moved into HR quite easily. In fact, almost by accident, it’s time to meet our final guest for today. Maxine Blake. Maxine is an HR business partner and talent acquisition lead for a county council. If you haven’t heard the term talent acquisition before, this is just the process of finding and recruiting people to work in the organisation. In her interview, she shares how her career change to work in HR was more of a challenge than it was for Josh.

Maxine Blake: 00:24:10ultimillion pound businesses,: 1000 Maxine Blake: 00:25:00

So I then spent three years desperately trying to get into HR into L&D and had some really good support from some agencies. But because I’d spent 17 years in hospitality, nobody would touch me in the nicer scents and during that period are going to be a scene of my chemistry. I’ve done an MBA with the Open University. I’m still constantly had no hospitality, no hospitality, go get a job in HR in hospitality, whereas I was applying for any HR job in all honesty. So then after three years, I delightfully got a call from one of the agencies I think, was the SF group, who turn around and said, we actually have an L&D business partner post over working with spirit which is still – was a pub company. So therefore, I obviously jumped snap the handoff, went did the interview, and then moved into L&D side to start with, because I still knew I wanted to move into the HR side, again, trying to get that first foot in the door.

Maxine Blake: 00:25:50d to do and they were about £: 4000 Maxine Blake: 00:26:38

And then eventually after a couple of job hops for doing L&D, and then kind of being heading up internal communication and employee engagement, that finally got to the glorified delightful HR business partner perspective, and finally got into doing it full time HR, and then it just rocketed from there career wise and stuff.

Fay Wallis: 00:26:56

Well, it’s brilliant to hear your story. I’m sorry, it was so hard to break into your HR career. But I’m hoping that for anyone listening, who may be finding it challenging themselves, it’s reassuring to know they’re not alone in finding it difficult. And actually, there is a way forward. So it’s really clever what you’ve done by taking that step into L&D, where you could prove you have those skills and that experience to then be able to sidestep.

Maxine Blake: 00:27:23

The biggest thing for me in kind of, one of the biggest pieces of advice I’ve got for anybody who is trying to get onto the HR ladder, and struggling enough and easy is about going and finding CPD to do so whether that is with the you know, so for me, I chose to go through the Master’s qualification. But I just turn around think if I can’t progress, then I’m going to progress education instead. So even if so if there’s courses, you know, whether it’s on Eventbrite or anywhere, any CPD that you can do, so that when you do finally get into an interview for HR post to go, well, actually, yes, I’ve been coming on doing whatever posted I wasn’t currently. But actually, I can also then go and go, well, actually, I went and studied this, I did this webinar, I went to join this group, I went and did mediation training, anything that can do even if it’s smaller steps will all go towards your credibility when you do go for HR business partner post.

Fay Wallis: 00:28:15

After getting carried away chatting to Maxine for ages, I eventually asked her the question, what did she like most about working in HR?

Maxine Blake: 00:28:24

I can’t lie I always look really cheesy. So if I do a LinkedIn post, I always look really cheesy, because I just I love every aspect of HR, I’ve not find it. The only thing I’ve not done is payroll, shared services. But every element of HR that I’ve done I absolutely love, especially in case law and stuff. But with a specific role, probably the biggest bulls is and it’s, it’s almost like sales, in a way is when we land on somebody. So that can be where, especially when we’ve got some other senior roles that kind of the executive director posts, or when we’ve got some real technical specialist posts. So things like we were looking for a tree and biodiversity manager before now, which I was like we have those do we need the ecologist? arborist I’m kind of like do we have that? I didn’t know they had those.

Maxine Blake: 00:29:05

But yes, the biggest pose is when we’ve either been able to we’ve either had a candidate that we know is that really good candidate, and therefore then found a post which fits for us and fits for them. And being able to to match somebody and offer them a job just feels incredible. Or where we use this really hard post where with the maybe recruiting for 12 months, and we fill it with somebody who’s great. And that seems to be a lot around the engineering roles, where we then managed to fill them and that’s just the biggest thing is to kind of go something that’s been so difficult for us as organisation to just do proactive searches proactive headhunting contacting the right people. And being to bring them in is just great. I feel fantastic.

Fay Wallis: 00:29:42

So hearing all of those highs, I feel bad actually asking you if you’d be happy to share what the challenges have been. I know you’ve said that you love all aspects of HR, but I also know that all of our careers come with challenges. So what are some of the challenges that you might not have anticipated?

Maxine Blake: 00:29:58sh, selling raffle tickets to: 1200 Maxine Blake: 00:30:42

But the biggest challenge was working out kind of everyone’s little intricacies and idiosyncrasies to a certain extent. So I would go and pitch an idea to a board. Now, nobody ever said boards can be a little bit like a wolf pack, and therefore different stocks than everybody else starts. And I was only getting bombarded with questions. And then it was again, it was a colleague who turned around to me and said, pick them off early on. And I said, Oh, what do you mean? And they said it because obviously, I’d made sure my communication was at board level, so kind of quite high level. But she said, go and speak to the individual directors before you go in, to then go, this is what I’m looking at doing any thoughts, ideas, etc. So that way, when I went into the meeting, I’d be covered any concerns that people had got, and therefore it landed, and I didn’t end up with that challenge for multiple people all at the same time, without necessarily having the answers.

Maxine Blake: 00:31:26

But then as part of that, then thinking, ok, so the next kind of level down, if I’m looking at kind of the middle management, what just like communication, he talks like them. And for the guys, for me on the shop floor, how do I need to communicate with them. So you’ve got three different styles to start with. But then on each of those three different levels, you have different people within it. So one of my board members, it was a great guy called Dave, and he was a huge reflector. So whereas I tend to speak quite quickly, and talk quite fast, and some of that’s linked to neuro diversity, but I tend to do everything at triple speed and everything else. With David being a reflector, I knew when I went in to speak to him, I need to slow down how I spoke, I need to make it a lot more considered. And also keep it fairly short and to the point.

Maxine Blake: 00:32:06

So the way I did is I would go with him, I’d make sure as the last appointment for the day, I’d pitch whatever idea it would be, and then say, let’s catch up tomorrow morning, because that we had overnight to reflect. And then in the morning, I just say, are you okay with him we talked about yesterday, nine times out of 10, it would be however, if I’d gone in either at my normal speed or my normal pace, then he would just use to sit there going what. So it’s so the communication, working out all the different communication, Scout styles, and how different people need different communication. So it wasn’t just down to the level that you were pitching at, but also what those personal plus individuals learning styles were there to make sure you’ve tailored your approached to what they needed.

Fay Wallis: 00:32:44

While that’s something that I’ve touched on with the podcast a few times before, because it is so important, especially as you’re progressing your way up to different levels in your career, I think the more senior you become, the more essential those influencing skills really are. So what I can do for anyone listening, who is thinking, oh, gosh, I could do with knowing more about this, or I don’t feel fully confident with this is I’ll put some links in the show notes to the other episodes that look at influencing. And hopefully there’ll be helpful. So it’s great to have that raised. So wrapping up our time together today, Maxine, you’ve given so much advice already. But what else would you like to share with us for anyone listening today who was thinking of changing career?

Maxine Blake: 00:33:28

Do it, only because however, whatever the challenges come up, and however hard it seems, I said, I spent three years applying for roles. It does knock your confidence when people either there was an again, with all the qualifications or the experience that I got, I kept getting those, and it does knock your confidence. And you do end up questioning whether or not it’s the right thing to do. And actually, maybe I should just carry on doing what I was doing. Because I was really good at that. So why am I even sticking my neck out in the nicest sense. If it’s something you’re passionate about, do it don’t let anything stop you take the knocks take it as it is because I would think most people have been managers as well. And therefore have, you know said no to people, and therefore you yourself, it’s nothing personal. And therefore just take the knocks. But if it’s want you to do then just keep focused, keep going down. And I guarantee sooner or later even if it’s one of the first foot in the door, you will get that foot in the door. And then you can show people how brilliant you are and your career can go.